New 2009 F150 Versus Toyota Tundra

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NOTE: We’ve updated this information and completed a full, official comparison of the 2009 F150 and the 2009 Tundra. If you’d like to comment, please comment on that post instead.

This week marks the 2008 North American International Auto Show, with Ford debuting the next generation F150 due out in 2009. The newest F150 will represent tougher competition for the Tundra with new features, new engines, better fuel economy, and of course, new sheet metal. Here’s a break down of the new 2009 F150 and Toyota’s anticipated response.

The Next Generation F150

2009 Ford F150 versus Toyota Tundra

Due out in 2009, Ford’s newest F150 (seen hear with Toby Keith and Ford CEO Alan Mulally), will have the new Ford signature three-bar grill similar to the SuperDuty. The SuperCrew will be 6″ longer to make it more competitive in terms of rear seat space. The 2009 F150 will also be lighter (perhaps as much as 500lbs) in order to improve fuel economy. Most of the weight reduction will come from the chassis…Ford states that the new F150’s chassis will be stronger and lighter than the current truck. We’re guessing they’ll use thinner, stronger steel and more aluminum. Most importantly the newer, lighter truck will achieve better gas mileage across the board using Ford’s current 5.4 and 4.6 V8’s (1-2 mpg’s max).

In 2010, one year after the re-design, Ford will release a mid-sized diesel as well as a gas turbocharged direct injection (GTDI) engine named “EcoBoost”. Ford’s F150 diesel will be about 4.5L in displacement and we’re guessing it will have 250 hp and 425 lb-ft of torque, with fuel economy above 20mpg (city or highway). As for the “EcoBoost” engine, it will most likely be the 3.5L GTDI V6 that will be offered in the MKS next year. That engine is rated at 340 hp and 340 lb-ft in the Lincoln, but it will probably be downgraded in the F150. Expect the F150’s EcoBoost V6 to have at least 300 hp and 300 lb-ft of torque while getting better than 20mpg (highway). The EcoBoost engine won’t replace the 5.4 V8, but it will most likely eliminate the need for the 4.6L at some point.

2009 Ford F150 Platinum

The new F150 will also offer a “trailer sway mitigation system” that uses the new standard Roll Stability Control to determine if the trailer is moving the truck and respond accordingly. It sounds pretty incredible, but we’ll have to see it in action before we make any judgments. Ford will also offer a back-up camera and a trailer hitch step system similar to the SuperDuty on the new 150.

Finally, Ford will continue to move the F150 up-market. A “Platinum” version of the F150 will be available – it will most likely encompass all the features of the soon-to-be discontinued Lincoln Mark LT. We’ve read they’ll have “tuxedo stitching”, brushed aluminum panels, etc. As usual, the new Ford will look nice inside and out.

Toyota’s Response

Ford hasn’t suggested they’re going to add a more powerful gas engine to the F150, meaning that the Tundra will maintain it’s supremacy in terms of horsepower and towing (with a gas engine). Ford’s new F150 diesel will probably be rated to tow more than 11,000 lbs, but it will directly compete with the new diesel Tundra, which should also be rated at more than 11,000. It’s anyone’s guess to see what these trucks are rated to pull, but 12,000 lbs seems like the limit. It will be interesting to see who builds both of these diesel engines, as Ford’s relationship with Navistar is ending and it’s still unclear if Toyota will use a diesel from Isuzu, Hino, or one sourced internally.

Toyota’s response to the EcoBoost engine from Ford will be interesting. Originally, we anticipated Toyota would produce a hybrid version of the Tundra, but as we reported a few days ago the Tundra Hybrid is dead. Toyota may be planning to attack diesel fuel efficiency, but they may not have a response to the EcoBoost. That might be a big competitive edge for Ford, but we’ll hold that judgment until we have a chance to drive one.

As for the F150’s new Platinum edition, it seems like the Tundra Limited has that covered. Both manufacturers will probably offer rear heated seats, some sort of entertainment/information system (a la Microsoft Sync), special colors, interiors, etc. Nothing revolutionary, but nice nonetheless. Ford will probably maintain their lead here.

It’s probable Toyota will re-skin the Tundra between now and 2009, but it’s going to be relatively minor. It’s anyone’s guess what Toyota will do to improve the Tundra – most likely it will be minor adjustments and updates designed to alleviate some of the Tundra’s problems.

The last time we compared the Tundra and F150, the Tundra was safer and more powerful than the F150. The Tundra had more standard safety equipment, a better tow rating, more horsepower, bigger brakes, and better overall performance. While Ford will finally be adding standard Roll Stability Control, there’s no mention of improving the 5.4’s power or tow rating, or improving the braking system.

Could it be that the 2007 Tundra will come out on top when compared to the 2009 F150? It will be interesting to see…we’ll get back to you in a few months.

Filed Under: Toyota Tundra Reviews and Comparisons

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  1. [...] our preliminary comparison of the Tundra and the 2009 F150, based on everything we could find. Toyota Tundra Versus The New 2009 F150 | tundraheadquarters.com The last time we compared the Tundra and F150, the Tundra was safer and more powerful than the [...]

  2. Brian says:

    A few months ago I asked about a comparison to the GMC/chevy trucks and was told one was coming soon. Any further info on this comparison?
    Thanks.

  3. skipppy says:

    I can’t wait! However, Tundra cannot tow as much a ford f150. I was told that towing is more than just power. It’s also about the frame, weight, and things like that. oh well, we will have to wait and see.

  4. Ian says:

    Is there any word on Toyota upgrading their interior?? I have to admit, I really like the 09′ Ford and Dodge interiors. The Toyota interior has always been a question mark for me. Don’t get me wrong, I think that the interior is very functional but compared to the others it doesn’t look as refined or liveable. I would love to see Toyota add a second interior option. I was also surprised to see the same interior offered in the Sequioa considering what their competition looks like…..

  5. Dennis says:

    Just a comment on your statement that Ford “made no mention of improving the 5.4 power”. Ford has said the 5.4 will be upgraded in power and economy, although numbers haven’t been released, and new 6.2L “Boss” V8 will be released, just not in time for the initial production. It’s the diesel that has the most interest for me, as fuel prices rise. It’s believed to be a version of the European ford diesel.

  6. bryan says:

    a pathetic attempt to compare the 07 tundra to the 09 f150. The tundra is not safer than the f150 failing to meet it’s 5 start rating. The tundra might have bigger brakes, but last time i checked it’s a whole lot bigger than the f150. Just because they are bigger does not mean it stops better. Ford has revealed the 5.4l will be upgraded and as such there is no idea if the tundra has more power. Proof is in the fact the 5.4l in australia makes 340 hp. While that’s not the tundra’s 381, it does go to show you that the potential is there. Finally the tundra is a joke because of it’s overall design. Congrats toyota, you put the guts of a 3/4 ton truck in a 1/2 ton. NOW i have the power to tow what my truck frame can’t handle. If i wanted that kind of power and poor mileage to tow something large, i’d buy an f250. As fruther proof the truck is a 3/4 guts in a 1/2 frame just look at the truck of the year award it won. Who were the competitors? none other than the gmc 2500 chevy 2500 dodge 2500 & 3500 and the f-450. sweet you out ran a f-450, you want a cookie?
    Plain and simple the new tundra is a joke. Didn’t get it right with the t-100, didn’t get it right with the first tundra, can’t sell this new one without a ton of incentives.

  7. admin says:

    Brian – you’re right. We still need to do that. We’ll work on it this weekend.

    Dennis – we interpreted Ford’s announcement to mean that the 5.4L would get better fuel economy, but we could be wrong. There was no mention of the 6.2L either…frankly, it wouldn’t make much sense to bring this engine out. It’s a step in the wrong direction now that the CAFE MPG restrictions are in place.

    Bryan – thanks for your comments. I don’t know what I’m going to gain by responding to your points, other than to say you seem less than objective.

  8. bryan says:

    You have nothing to gain because you have no response.

    I notice you did not answer my point about the tundra receiving a 4 star crash test rating.

    You didn’t address the added weight to the tundra being the requirement for the larger breaks.

    You didn’t backup my point it’s a 3/4 ton truck in a half 1/2 ton frame.

    You also did not address my point about the truck of the year award let alone even spell my name correctly.

    By not responding you only acknowledge the tundra flaws. Thanks for a quick response i guess?

  9. bryan says:

    I did see one thing i left out. you mentioned the 6.2l being a bad idea due to cafe fuel standards and yet you produce a truck that doesn’t have the highest fuel economy?

  10. Dennis says:

    Thanks for your reply,

    I’ll grant you that Ford’s press release from the Detroit auto show did not mention the 6.2L, but it has been well documented that one is in the works to compete with Toyota, Dodge Hemi, and the GM 6.0.

    I’ll agree with your point that economy makes more sense than high HP right now, except for bragging rights. The 5.4 is a decent motor that produces good torque, although peak HP is not as high as the competition. If/when a 6.2l is introduced, my guess is it will be limited volume, and may only see service in the Super Duty Ford. Time will tell.

    I still think it’s the diesels that will be getting the most attention in light of the new CAFE standards.

  11. admin says:

    OK Bryan – you win.

    On average, the Tundra is about 500 lbs heavier than the F150. Of course, a crew cab F250 is 1500 lbs heavier than an F150, so I really don’t think you’ve got much of a point about the Tundra needing bigger brakes because it’s so heavy. Especially considering the much heavier SuperDuty’s brakes are only 13.66 inches in diameter, still smaller than Tundra’s by about a third of an inch.

    So a bigger vehicle needs bigger brakes, yet the F250’s brakes are smaller than the Tundra. Huh.

    The 4-star crash test rating is a disappointment’s, however Ford doesn’t currently have any standard accident avoidance features like stability control, traction control, etc. NHTSA studies have shown stability control reduces single vehicle accidents by 40% – that’s almost half! I think the Tundra’s safer as long as it has all the electronics. Maybe with the 09′ that will change, but who’s to say the Tundra doesn’t achieve 5 stars by then.

    Your point about a “3/4 ton frame in a 1/2 ton truck” doesn’t make sense to me. So what? Is that bad?

    The T.O.T.Y. award is BS. I’m the first one to say I don’t care. If you look thru the site, you won’t find a post or mention of it anywhere. Take your point up with Motor Trend.

    Your point about the 340hp aussie 5.4 belies your lack of understanding even more. Anyone with a little bit of industry knowledge will tell you that Australian emissions standards are much different than those in the U.S., so you can’t really look at aussie HP figures as realistic for U.S. soil.

    The CAFE argument you made is disjointed, but I think I get the drift…you’re saying why is the 6.2 bad if the 5.7 is OK? I don’t know the answer to that one. Up until a couple of weeks ago I thought Toyota was going to make a hybrid Tundra in order to help meet CAFE. Now it seems they’re going to focus on a diesel and that’s it. I expect Ford will do the same, but I could be wrong. Maybe they will bring out the 6.2.

    Finally, we come to your accusation that I spelled your name wrong. If you read through the comments, you’ll find the Brian I was speaking to.

  12. bryan says:

    Point of mentioning the 340hp 5.4l Australian motor is to show potential is there. Everyone knows Australia has lax emission codes. Read what i typed, potential.

    A 3/4 ton truck in a 1/2 ton frame makes no sense. Here let’s stop and think about it and i’ll explain it to you.

    With current mileage requirements increasing vehicle producers are focusing their cars and trucks on efficiency. Toyota is not shy to this leading the market with the highly over rated and mislabeled, “eco” friendly prius. The new tundra, being a truck with a bed, has some practical reason for increasing the power of their engines rather than raise their fuel economy. The only logical reason to increase power over fuel efficiency is to haul or tow more. If the current tundra can not tow or haul more than the current f150, who has class leading 11,000 lbs and 3080lbs, why would i purchase it? why do i need that extra power when you could have given me better fuel economy?

    So what you’re telling me is the Tundra now has more power allowing it to accelerate faster and stop sooner while towing/hauling less than the competition. If we were to compare two trucks, say the F150 and the new Tundra both hauling concrete to and from a job site which would you think is better? I could get there faster or make 2 or more trips? Congratulations you can pull and stop something that your frame doesn’t allow you to tow. If i need the power, which the tundra has, to pull a load that requires that power, which the tundra frame can’t support, I’ll look for a truck that has that pulling ability, a 2500, 3500, 4500. These trucks across the board from all manufacturers have more towing ability than the tundra all with atleast 150 ft. tq more not to mention frame to withstand the load. I’d like to point out here depending on the type of load you desire to haul, the super duty can come equipped with 14.53

  13. bryan says:

    I started looking around on this site and noticed it looked familiar. Then i realized that I had seen it before a year ago. I took at look at the f150 comparison you guys did where you said the engine was better cause you assumed it had good toyota quality. Ha and now we know the cam shafts have snapped and the u joints broke along with the collapsing wheels.

    That’s when I remembered this site was a joke. Take a look at these sites where they do some real comparisons and not by you high schoolers.

    http://fiestafordlincolnmercur.....its-armor/
    http://www.fordvehicles.com/thetruthabouttrucks/

  14. john says:

    Bryan,

    Do you really think a stronger frame is actually neccesary? Its not like the frame will actually break off or something, it does the job the way it’s suppose to. To me toyota was just trying to be innovative so they can focus on what really matters, why do u think the new f150 is going for a lighter frame now… I used to have an 05 f150 and i liked the truck but i do like the tundra better specially when towing. All vehicles have their own unique design just remember that you dont only look at the negative side.

  15. Nuckie says:

    John,

    The lighter frame (f-150) is also supposed to be stronger. This will both improve gas mileage (lighter) and overall payload/towing performance (stronger).

    The proof will of coarse be in the pudding however.

  16. Nuckie says:

    And to at least flame a litte,

    as far as safety, traction control is an option for the f-150.

    wheres the 5 star option for the tundra?

  17. admin says:

    Nuckie – Funny! I laughed when I read your comment. I think the point we were making is that Toyota’s standard electronic safety features compensate for a 4 star rating in some ways. IIHS testing of the Tundra was rated “Good” all the way around. Good is the IIHS’s highest rating. The F150 received a Good rating in frontal impacts, but has not been rated for side impacts yet.

    We’re still comfortable saying the Tundra is safer based on the standard ESC and traction control, and the IIHS “Good” rating.

  18. admin says:

    Bryan – Highschoolers? Wow. What an insult…

    I’m not sure what points you’re trying to make with your comments, but I will say that Ford’s “class leading” tow and payload ratings are based on a 2wd reg cab 5.4 with the 7700lb payload package. I can tell you that’s not a truck that most people buy. So I think the more appropriate comparison is an XLT F150 Ext. Cab 4×4 v. a Tundra SR5 Dbl Cab 4×4. Comparing those more normal configurations, the F150 comes in quite a bit behind the Tundra. If you’d read our comparison back in March, you’d know that.

    BTW, saying the Dodge SRT10 is the fastest truck on the road is like saying the P-51 Mustang fighter is the fastest prop plane ever built. It’s true, but they stopped making both years ago.

  19. Nuckie says:

    Just had to toss my two pennies in there, not gonna argue the overall safety package.

    I’m of the doesn’t *really* need a full size truck just likes the convenience of it group. Haters may flame I could definantly get away with a small pickup.

    Only things really turning me off from the tundra are looks and price. I thought the last gen tundras were pretty clean and would’ve liked to see an evolution of that. They ventured into ram styling territory on me which is pretty much the opposite of what I’m looking for.

    Sadly looks and price are the only real deal breakers for me with the 1/2 tons, they are all more’n capable of doing what I need em for.

    As it stands I’m waiting to see what ford actually releases as far as new engine options for the next gen truck, and I’m very anxious to see all of the manufacturers small diesels.

  20. Ivan says:

    You can debate all you want. All you have to do is compare the resale value of a Toyota and Ford.

    I own a 93 T100 and the only thing I changed so far was the clutch disks. My neighbor just got rid of his 2000 F150 cause that thing kept braking on him :)

  21. Ivan says:

    One more thing about the T100. I have had random people come off the street and offer to buy my truck, this have never happened with any cars that I have owned.

    I wonder haw many people would like to purchase a 1993 F150 …

    Just a thought.

    Oh yeah and don’t give me any, “Oh the new Ford is so much better now and so much better designed” .

    I know a mechanic that used to work for Ford dealership in OR and he says that it is still the same crap on with different headlights.

    Any car is good while it is new, but if you are going to work it hard and plan to keep it for a while then buy a Toyota.

  22. Jeff says:

    There is a reason that Ford remains the Truck Leader for 31 years straight. Tundra had to do something to get away from its POS 2006 Tundras which were just an upgraded tacoma…

    Fords Current 2004 based F150 is a 5 Star crash test rating unlike the 4 start 2007 Tunrda.

    To Add, Ford 2007 and 2008 NON-remodeled F150 has higher towing capacity and payload than ANYONE in the truck business.

    For 2009 Ford is again raising the Bar even higher with ever more unsurpassed comfort, capability and of what a truck owner wants.

    Just like it was previously mentioned, HP and Torque is not all that makes a truck a truck.

    Ford will remain the Truck leader cause they know how to make a truck, what a truck owner wants, and know how to provide what they say the will provided!

  23. Jeff says:

    AND I have a 1973 Ford Pickup that keeps on running and running…i even still use it to pull..

    I would rather drive my 1973 ford pickup over buying or driving any Toyota brand truck….new or old!

    I know several people who own other old ford trucks from the 80s 90 and current that have had little or not problems with them.

    Toyota is still just another mediocre brand like nissan.

  24. heely says:

    Well explain why ford is going bankrupt they are moving their plants to mexico and use parts from pakistan while every toyota truck is made right here in the US also ford, gm, and dodge have all been making full size trucks for 60+ years while toyota has only been making them for 8 and yet in 8 years they have not only caught up to but arguably surpassed the competition. One last thing toyota has ruled the compact truck industry since they were introduced now that they have a compatable truck the big three are just scared and makeing excuses. toyota built on a .001 standard while ford a .003 standard maybe thats why they last longer the parts actually fit

  25. Jeff says:

    Its in the Eye of the Beholder. American Cars have been the down fall of american business like ford, gm and dodge.

    The trucks of Ford, GM and Dodge are not being surpassed by Toyota, proven by sales numbers and dependability in a truck…except in the eye of a Toyota fan.

    Moving factories from the U.S. is not a reason of defeat but of success…The majority of Toyota is build outside the U.S. making it very competative in the pricing market…thus, hurting american sales as you can buy a Toyota for less than an American car/truck…

    In order for the Big 3 to make it competetive in price (and to increase sales) is to also to move some factories off of American soil as people in Mexico and other countries will work for much less than an American….

    Would you be willing to work for Japanses wages while in the U.S.? Doubt it!

    How does one become competitive with cost if nobody is willing to work for less?

    Yes, the Toyota truck is being manufactured in the U.S. but is just like walmart does, sale for less in some areas/departments and lose a little money there as people will buy the other stuff that is above cost. (the remainder of Toyota that is being made for less in other countries yet making a proffit cause it can still sell for less than an American car being made at $30.00 an hour versus $2 – $6 an hour.

    Ford 2006/2007 sales and losses are not due to less sales of Ford directly, but Fords specific decision to stop selling wholesale/rental type companies in that year killed lots of sales bringing their total numbers down.

    This is called Supply/Demand…something that there is a million of has a lower value of something that there are very few of. Take for example the Ferarri…if there are a miilion of them out there, they would not be selling for the price they are selling at.

    Get to the fact that Ford/GM/Dodge can make and DO make Great trucks and even todays American Cars: Fusion, Focus, new taurus as well as Chevy Malibu are new standards that equal or surpass the competitiion.

    My 73 Ford is build strong enough to last 35 years…gotta call that made pretty great!

  26. Truck Champ says:

    I came into work today and read the comments on this site. Almost every comment I read about the new tundra is so far from the truth. I live in Detroit, My Grandmother Retired from GM and my Grand father retired from Ford. I have owned a 5.7 d cab lmtd. for over a year now. I have owned at least six 1/2 tons in my life. I have pulled boats, trailers etc. with every-one. Anyone who really knows trucks knows that Dodge is the worst then ford, chevy about the same. My TUNDRA is the best weight pulling 1/2 ton yet, and not just by a little. The gap is so large i dont even know where to begin. Please dont give me the I should buy American crap. I sell toyotas thats how I make my living. Some of you should ask grandma how great it was to work fo GM and all the empty promise they have made her. Anytime anyone wants to bring their age old engineered pick-up to my dealership to see for yourself, I will gladly go to the yard and pick up a 9k trailer and we will see for ourselves. I GUARANTEE THE TUNDRA OUT PERFRMS IT. IF YOU DONT AGREE YOUR A BOLD FACE LIAR IVE SEEN IT FOR MY SELF!

  27. Truck Champ says:

    Ford Motor Company has announced another recall for cruise control switch problems, that could potentially result in engine fires, stretching across more than a dozen vehicle models ranging from 1992-2004 model years. The new recall involves more than 3.6 Million passenger cars, trucks, sport utility vehicles and vans. Click “Full Story” for the list of affected vehicles.http://www.truckblog.com/story.....cle_recall Thats safety at its best

  28. doesn't matter says:

    Truck champ

    you need to do some research about toyota and union and the way they treat employees like crap, toyota doesn’t pay there way in this country. and i’m not talking about the dealership

  29. Chris says:

    there are a lot of ignorant ford fans on this site. if you check the numbers like admin has been sayin the tundra dominates all other half tons.
    i use to own an f-150 5.4 i now own a tundra 5.7

    Fords big 11,000 lb towing claim is on a single cab long bed 2wd, i think they sold like ten of those. but the more popular extended cab 4wd shrt bed can only haul around a measly 8,000 lb. and the tundra doulble cab 4wd pulls 10,300 lbs. now tell me who has the better tow rating?
    oh and by the way tundras 2wd long bed can pull 10,800 lbs just 200 lb below fords. and it can pull and stop it a hell of a lot faster!

  30. Chris says:

    I think all these ford fans are just upset that toyota just raised the standard on half ton trucks much higher than they are use to. 2008 Motor Trend Truck of the Year!!

  31. Justin says:

    Where to start.

    1) It has been well documented Ford will be raising the 5.4L power in the ’09 models, but only in the area of 10-30hp, with all 1/2 ton models mated to a 6spd trans. The 6spd should improve mpgs slightly due to keeping the motor within its power-band better than the current 4spd. It has also been well documented that Ford will be releasing two versions of its 6.2L V8 “Boss”, a N/A version and a “Twin-Force” or “Eco-Boost” version. Initial release shows the Twin-Force 6.2L version will have HP/TQ ratings in the area of 425/450, which many inside Ford have stated this to be a low estimate. The 6.2L will first be released in the Navigator, and then installed in the F150/Expedition. Ford will also release a V6 model Twin-Force model that reaches in the 300+ HP & TQ range and receives 20-30% better mpgs than similarly equipped V6’s. So the 6.2L Twin-Force should get roughly the same, if not better mpg’s than all other makes 1/2 ton largest displacement motor. The

  32. Justin says:

    I would also like to state that with the release of the ’09 F150 and the ’09 Ram, there are bound to be problems, just like every 1st and 2nd year models.

    The 6spd trans they will be using in the F150 has been in the Expedition for the last year, with great success. There were some initial reports of the trans not shifting properly and/or roughly on early models, but by all accounts the more recent models aren’t experiencing this issue. Lets hope this trend continues.

    The 4.6L & 5.4L motors are proven engines and very reliable. They do have some minor issues, like almost every motor. Now the 6.2L (N/A & EcoBoost versions), the 4.4L Diesel and the 3.5L EcoBoost motors, being all new, are going to have their growing pains. I believe these aren’t being released at the beginning of the ’09 F150 production, because either all aspects haven’t been fully completed and/or Ford is trying to perform more thorough R&D. With the issues Ford has had recently with NaviStar and the Powerstroke motors, it would be in Fords best interest to work out as many bugs as possible and complete their R&D fully before production. This may impact initial sales figures, but hopefully this will show improvement in their quality and bring back more customers.

    Before we can say the new F150 is the best or ranks with the best, it will need to go through some major time of service to insure it can hold up to the demands that are required of a truck. Not your typical soccer mom or car person buying a truck that will never use a truck as it was built for, but I mean through some off roading conditions, towing, hauling, extremely cold/hot climates, construction sites, etc. So I’m not giving the F150 a free pass, just like I haven’t with the new Tundra, new GM siblings or even the upcoming ’09 Ram. They all must prove their worth. We still don’t know fully how the new GM and Tundra products will last over time, but by initial reports from owners, they seem to be exceeding aspects in some areas while also rating below average in others. Which I assume will be the case with the new F150 and Ram as well.

    This is what I love, competition breeding competition. Manufacturers always trying to one up the other only makes it better for the consumer.

  33. admin says:

    Justin – Glad to see you attacking again! I was wondering if you were going to latch onto this one or not…

    1) Ford’s 6.2L has been on the drawing board for about 6 years. It keeps getting added and then pulled off…here’s why. The most comparable engine, the GM 6.0L, isn’t a very good seller. So whatever development costs Ford has, they’re probably going to be amortized over a small volume.

    The 6.2L, likely to get 18mpg highway, 13mpg city, is a step in the wrong direction for Ford considering they need a fleet rating of 35mpg from a lineup that’s composed mostly of trucks and SUVs. Toyota and GM have a lot of cars to average with – Ford does not. However, having said that, I wouldn’t be shocked if Ford planned on worrying about that later. If Ford does bring out the 6.2L, it will be a victory for them if the gas mileage rating is competitive.

    2) I’m not sure what your point is about towing. We’ve conceded that the average Ford hauls more than the average Toyota, but the average Toyota (we figure it to be a double cab SR5) easily tows more than the average F150 (which is probably an XLT super cab). Ford does do better in the work trucks, but you’re completely wrong about the 7700 payload package being common. It requires a 5.4 and a long box, it’s only available on a reg. cab., and if you’ve ever worked at a Ford dealer you’d know that’s a very rare bird (most reg cab work trucks are 4.6’s). Besides – a 7700 payload package truck is expensive for a work truck…most construction companies we know want the cheapest truck they can get (because their employees are just going to tear them up anyways).

    3) The last time we drove a car, we determined that the brakes are a safety component. Tundra’s bigger brakes and shorter stopping distances are a big advantage over the F150, especially when hauling/towing. Even if the new F150 offers all the right electronics, it’s still going to have smaller brakes (at least based on what we know right now).

    4)There isn’t any proof to support the “3/4 ton power train in a 1/2 ton truck” argument, yet people keep making it. Besides, if you believe that Ford brings out the 6.2L engine in their half ton, how will their truck be any different? Won’t that be a 3/4 ton power plant in a 1/2 ton truck?

    5) Uh…don’t know who you’re talking to, but it’s not us. We don’t remember making any claims about a hybrid’s environmental superiority. As to your point, it’s definitely up for debate (but not here, try AutoBlogGreen.com).

    6) Sounds good.

    7) It’s an interesting point – I’d like to see some data from a reputable third party to support it, but I think your analysis is intriguing. One thing to consider – NADA and KBB are guides, not factual representations of actual prices – they’re a snapshot of a moment in time, and they’re updated in an ad-hock manner.

    8 ) I agree the 93 T100 has half the capability of a 93 F150, but I think the T100 was probably better made than the F150 was back in 93. In any case, I’d choose the truck that was in better shape. When they’re 15 years old, it’s a crap-shoot anyways.

    9) …

    10) Well said.

    11) The Ranger is dying a slow, miserable death, and it’s a great example of Ford’s mis-management. It’s a nice inexpensive truck that’s pretty damn reliable, yet Ford treats it like the proverbial red-headed step child. Ford has stated the compact truck segment is dying, but I have a hard time believing that.

    12) Recalls have always been a bad way to determine quality. I remember the 2001 Focus had 5 recalls, yet just a couple of years later Consumer Reports rated it a “top pick”.

    13) We like the F150 – we really do, but we’ve found the Tundra is better in more ways than it is inferior. The good news is that you can’t go wrong in today’s full-size truck market. They’re all pretty good.

  34. Justin says:

    Admin:

    1) Yes, the 6.2L had been on again off again for many years, which many are happy to see it finally getting to the production stage. Now like you stated, the 6.0L isn’t a very good seller, but neither is the Ford 6.8L V10. Both are provided in limited models and limited quantities, mostly due to the CAF

  35. Justin says:

    Sorry, mislabeled #2.

    True the average extended/super/double cab model Tundra has a higher rating than the competition, but the average owner of a 1/2 ton won

  36. admin says:

    Justin – I always look forward to reading your comments. Maybe I can convince you to contribute some articles to TundraHQ?

    As to a couple of your points…I worked at a Ford dealership as a lot tech, salesman, finance guy, and then new and used car sales manager for years (about 10). I also worked in a Toyota store for a couple of years. I can tell you some things from my personal experience…first of all, most buyers don’t consider everything as carefully as you do. One of the first things I learned is that most people don’t think about facts/figures/etc. half as well as the people that read this website do. Instead, they make decisions based on what friends and family buy, previous experience, and even color (hard to believe, but I’ve personally seen dozens of people buy a car/truck/suv based purely on color. It’s ridiculous to me, but who am I to judge).

    As much as I would like to agree that business owners choose the right truck for the job, I can tell you that many don’t. I’ve had people brag about hauling 30k lbs backhoes with 1-ton trucks! I remember telling someone that if he had an accident, the person he hit while towing 30k (TWICE the recommended load limit) could probably sue him for every penny he had.

    The guy told me I was a moron and left.

    The 7700 lb group is rare, and Ford’s towing claims are kind of bogus. But I wholeheartedly agree that people who plan to haul 10k lbs on a regular basis can and should buy a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

    To that end, I understand your point about the Tundra’s power train leading some people to conclude it’s capable of pulling much more than rated. I think that problem is probably just as common with other models too.

    When you speak about dealer valuation of used cars, I can tell you from experience that the used car market fluctuates wildly from NADA/KBB values. When I was a used car manager, I took my book with me to the local used car auctions twice a week. I would make notes about actual selling prices and their relation to book. Wholesalers and dealers are often mathematically challenged (no offense), so it was common practice to deduct options (no add for packages like XLT, Lariat, etc.), double or triple stated mileage penalties for high miles vehicles, and even deduct a year from a vehicles value (appraise a 2004 as if it were a 2003). These are all simple and easy methods of changing book value without needing to do any quick math, and auction prices would often reflect these simple adjustments.

    From my experience, I can tell you Toyota trucks were ALWAYS worth book value, and sometimes more. The same cannot be said about Fords. However, that’s just one man’s experience working in Denver for a few years, and it should be discounted as such. I am intrigued that by your findings nonetheless.

    I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying about the 6.2 either. The 3.5L Ecoboost, assuming it’s modular, would scale to a 4.6/4.7L V8. I don’t think that the 6.2L is going to be an “ecoboost” model because the technology is so different. I could be mistaken. If Ford does develop a 6.2L that gets 20mpg, the rest of the truck manufacturers are going to be in trouble…

    I think the best explanation is that the new 6.2L will replace the V10 in the superduty and be offered on a limited basis in the 150, just as you said. That would mitigate the impact the 6.2 would have on the F150’s CAFE average.

    Good points all, thanks again for commenting.

  37. Justin says:

    Admin: Againh, thanks for the reply.

    I too know plenty of people (my wife included), who’ll purchase a vehicle soley on color or style, not knowing anything else about it nor it’s competition. So I agree whole heartedly that too many people purchase vehicles based on little things or status symbol. Like the Escalade for example, sure it’s really nice and has good power, but is one of the least reliable vehicles on the road. But hey, to each their own I guess.

    Also true, there are those wise and unwise business owners. I’ve seen and heard about these not so smart people towing 2 times the GVWR. Even though I’d hate to see it happen, but I’m sure if thise accident scenerio occurred, there would be a huge price to pay for the owner of the towing vehicle.

    I’m sure many people tow more than their GVWR with more than just the Tundra. Seen it before with all makes/models, except the Titan.

    I have seen the price fluctuate greatly between NADA & KBB and usually try to take the middle ground of the two. Wholesalers and dealers are always trying to get the upper hand on your trade in value, so it wouldn’t suprise me if they switched years or deduct packages (SR5, Limited, Lariat, etc) to work in their favor. This is why I do not trade in vehicles, unless I have too, or I require the dealer to give my stated value. If they are unwilling to work with me, on to the next dealer I go.

    It is true, the majority of Toyota’s are worth their resale value, depending on how the vehicle was used and abused of course. Fords, depending on model and how they were used/abused, many times were not. Like the SuperDuty 6.0L, great truck but too many problems with the motor. Many of the Ford cars weren’t worth their resale value. Now Ford trucks, again depending on how they were used, were worth it. Ford is finally starting to gain ground on their car quality and reliability, so hopefully they’re turning things around, while Toyota for the most part, just has to continue what they’re doing.

    As far as I’m aware, the 3.5L EcoBoost is an enlarged and heavily modified version of the Duratec they currently have in production, so by all accounts it shouldn’t be a modular motor. Now by everything I’ve read, Ford is to release a base 6.2L that is N/A. A year or so later, Ford is stated to be releasing the 6.2L EcoBoost/Twin-Force. Attached is an old link slightly referring to it. Also, look for any web post by “Igor”, a very reliable person with Ford insider info. I’d venture to guess he’s been accurate on 95% of the info he’s released.

    http://www.autosavant.net/2007.....ction.html

    Here’s an old post by Igor, about the 6th post down, referring to the new Ford motors: http://www.blueovalforums.com/.....ntry196581

    Here is an article written by him: http://www.autosavant.net/2008.....-ford.html

    I’m not saying the 6.2L EcoBoost will hit the 20’s, just using the basic 20-30% logic that Ford has released about the EcoBoost capabilities. Again though, I think the 6.2L will be offerred on a limited basis in the F150 and as a replacement for the 6.8L.

    It’s always fun to speculate and like I’ve said before, this is what I love, one manufacturer is always trying to one up the others.

    Thanks again for allowing us to voise our thoughts and opinions.

  38. Looking4Truck says:

    I am looking at getting a new truck and I am comparing the 2008 F150 and the 2008 Toyota Tundra. I read on here and the F150 is bashed, I read other sites and the Tundra is bashed. Tryin to make the right desicion before I invest.

    I am looking for some good websites where I can compare the both. We are looking at towing capability and safety. Any help would be great.

    Thanks.

  39. Mickey says:

    Trader I’m happy you have one. Such a lovely comment. Shows great commitment.

  40. earl says:

    Im looking to buy a new truck. I have been looking at the domestics along with the imports. The quest I have is that the Toyota dealer says the Tundra frame is 3 frames bolted together to make one. Sounds like a unibody to me. More likly to bent and give more than body roll. Why should I buy a Toyota rather than a F-150 or better yet a F-250? Horsepower isnt everything. Theres alot more that goes into towing than horsepower. Why doesnt Tundra offer a built in trailer brake. Why souldn’t I buy a 3/4 ton. The Tundra is just as expensive ($40,000.00). More Truck for the money with ALOT more GCVW. Ford has been doing this for decades and is the Tundra going to be like the T100? I still see 1970’s models ford driving around but no Toyota’s. I have driven them all and the Tundra doesnt ride like truck. Why? After reading the coments above im leaning more to a domestic.
    I really dont care about gas milage. $3 or $4 a gallon when you only get 14-18mpg really doesnt matter. It still cost ALOT, if I was worried about that I would byuy a car. What can the Tundra do for me more than any other? Above you talk about putting a Isuzu in the Tundra, isnt Isuzu owned by GM? So is there really a difference in the Truck market or is it a ploy by everyone to just sell more trucks. International makes the Powerstoke and makes very dependable rigs. So whats the difference?

  41. earl says:

    Is Toyota making the 8 foot bed, tailgate step, power folding/extending mirrors and trailer brakes a option? What is the real capacity??

  42. Anonymous says:

    Chris Said in February 11th, 2008 @7:27 pm
    there are a lot of ignorant ford fans on this site. if you check the numbers like admin has been sayin the tundra dominates all other half tons.
    i use to own an f-150 5.4 i now own a tundra 5.7

    Fords big 11,000 lb towing claim is on a single cab long bed 2wd, i think they sold like ten of those. but the more popular extended cab 4wd shrt bed can only haul around a measly 8,000 lb. and the tundra doulble cab 4wd pulls 10,300 lbs. now tell me who has the better tow rating?
    oh and by the way tundras 2wd long bed can pull 10,800 lbs just 200 lb below fords. and it can pull and stop it a hell of a lot faster!

    Thanks for opening my eyes and making me do my homework.
    How did the Tundra ever get ranked the Best truck in TRUCK TREND. The competion was a Chevy 1-ton and 3/4 ton with both gas and diesel along with a F-450 and 250 both gas and diesel. The F-450 can tow 24,000 lbs and weighs more than a house. They would only put a 7,000 lb trailer behind the trucks. Yhea the Tundra is faster on take off it weighs half as much if not less.
    Put 24,000 lbs behind the Tundra and see who is still standing, literally. Hell throw a Honda in there it will move mountains. They need to rethink that comparison. Wheres the CREWMAX’s 8 foot bed????

    Chris check your #’s. Who is going to tow over 5,000 lbs with out a trailer brake. Thats stupid, dangerous and the law varys from state to state at what weight the trailer will have brakes and how many axles. Does Toyota offer a factory installed trailer brake? NO!!! Go out and put a 10,000 lb trailer behind a Tundra and go into a turn at 60 mph and push that brake as hard as you can without having a trailer brake (Simular to Trailer Yaw). Let me know how that works out. After market trailer brake controlers dont tell you if there is a problem with the trailer brakes. Factory installed do. Factory installed the ABS works on the trailer. The size of the brake rotor doesnt mean everything. How many pistons are in the caliper? With the tundra having so much more power why is its capacity lower (GVWR).

    F-150 REGULAR CAB 4×2 STYLESIDE- 5.4L MAX PAYLOAD- 3080 GVWR- 8200
    TUNDRA Regular Cab 4X2- 5.7 MAX PAYLOAD- 1990 GVWR- 7000

    Straight from the web sites. So why tow it if you can haul it???? The Tundra has to be faster to make it to the gas pump. Tundra’s fuel tank only takes you 370 miles. The F-150’s fuel tank will take you 536 miles. Before anyone thinks of talking about recalls think about this you have to make so many vehicle with that problem in order for NHTSA to issue the recall. If Toyota can not produce enough vehicle’s in general then they can not issue a recall. So your Tundra may have concerns that you will never know about. The reason why Tundra’s resale value is so high look at the production numbers. If I made one lawn mower but 4 guys wanted it the price will go up. Supply and demand. Toyota only makes so many vehicles when the domestics are producing them alot faster so there many more of them hints there value according to dealers is less. When the last time you seen a 70’s or 80’s Toyota on the road better yet how many 90’s do you see? May be theres a reason. Europeans will pay a arm and a leg to get a domestic truck, they have Toyota’s and Nissans. The Tundra phase will fate just like the Titian in a year when they relize it just anther T100.

    So thanks again for opening my eyes I went to the dealer and drove it and took a none bias look at them all. When the Toyota dealer shoot him self in the foot by saying it will out haul and tow a heavy duty truck I relized he had no clue what he was talking about. So if all of you Toyota guys are listening to the salesman, stop do your research. They are just trying to make a dollar off you. Enjoy your Toyota’s but dont forget TOY is how the name starts. By looking at it and driving them I noticed that the Domestics have somthing going on and it works. Im buying a Ford.

  43. Earl says:

    Earl sent the last comment so if there is any questions or comment let me know.

  44. admin says:

    Earl – First and foremost, if you’re considering buying an F250 diesel compared to a new Tundra, that’s not a fair comparison. Regardless of what some moron car salesman told you, the Tundra is NOT comparable to an F250 diesel. They’re different trucks. If you need the features of the F250, like a lot of towing and hauling, and you don’t care about the higher price, higher maintenance costs, larger size, the F250’s harsher ride, etc. then go for it. When Toyota offers a true 3/4 ton we can talk about it then. BTW, I have a hard time believing you can buy an F250 diesel for the same money as a similar new Tundra.

    Ford’s built in trailer brake is a nice feature. Toyota would be wise to add that to the Tundra. There are many benefits to that system. But I don’t believe it’s available on the F150 (at least not in 08′).

    The unibody question is interesting – the Tundra’s frame seems to be good enough for the job, but the whole bed bounce problem raises the question. We tend to think that Toyota, with decades of proven engineering success, has built a good frame. Of course, these questions will be raised until enough time has passed. As for your accusation that they’re aren’t any 70’s Toyota trucks running around, I disagree. What about all those Land Cruisers people pay thousands of dollars for? They’re some of the nicest off-road vehicles you can buy (still to this day).

    The reg cab F150 with the heavy duty payload package does haul more, but we’ve said all along the comparison we make is between trucks that most people buy. Ford has only a slight payload advantage with 90% of the trucks on the road. The fuel tank comment I don’t understand – are you saying Ford’s optional 35.7 gallon tank is so much better than the Tundra’s 27 gallon tank? I don’t see how 8 gallons will make that big of a difference, but more power to you.

    The resale value argument is true – Toyota makes fewer trucks, and more people want it. That’s good, right?

    Thanks for visiting, glad to hear you’ve found a truck you like. Contrary to what many people believe, we actually like the F150. It’s a nice truck. But I hope you bought the F250 – that’s the smallest Ford you can buy right now that will tow more.

  45. Earl says:

    Here is the reason im going with Ford. Under the Maintenance Interval it says to “TIGHTEN THE CHASSIS MOUNT BOLTS” and “RE-TORQUE PROPELLER SHAFT BOLT” every 5,000 miles under towing conditions. And every 15,000 miles if you drive normal. They should not loosen. Maybe its the wrong bolts or need stronger bolts. This could indicate the 3 frame to make one (uni-body) are not as strong as advertied.
    At 30,000 you need to replace the SPARK PLUGS no matter if your towing or not. That isnt going to be cover under the warrenty, it aint cheap. At 60,000 it recommends the “INSPECT THE ENGINE VALVE CLEARENCE” if you have been towing. This is the recommended maintenance so it is not cover under the warrenty (warrenty just expired). Doing a valve job is not CHEAP. With shop rates at $50 to $70 dollars a hour theres a couple hundred dollars.

    They dont tell you this on the commercials. The dealership didnt even want to let me look in the owners manual when I was looking at the truck. Does the F-150 require this??? NO!! So Toyota streched the truck as far as they could to beat the competion. But hey it tows 200 lbs more. I would rather drive down the road knowing that my Propeller shaft is secure and the Chassis isnt going any where. Personally if you have to re-torque the Chassis mount bolts and Propeller Shaft Bolt the frame is not strong enough and theres somthing wrong with the transmission, but what do I know. I can buy a F-250 CREWCAB FX-4 with V-10 for $42,000 with a $3,000 rebate making it $39,000. The same equipped Tundra (minus its a 1/2 ton) is $39,000 with a $3,000 rebate making it $36,000. With the cost of Tundra maintenance program it would be cheaper to own the Superduty. Even if it drinks the gas. At least then I dont have to worry about losing a driveshaft or the cab coming off in a turn. As for the Land Crusier you talked about above. Off road enthusiasts love them due to the aluminum body and ability to modify them. They usally are sporting a GM 350 and DANA axles, so the only thing that is a Toyota is a body.
    The Tundra looks good but if I cant put a snow plow on the front of or 2,000 lbs of gravel in the bed without worring about breaking it in half then I dont need it. When I see or can talk to someone who has exceed the payload limit more than once and the truck is fine then I will think about it until then fix the maintenance program. Thats somthing i bet most owners dont even think about or know. This isnt my first time to the rodeo. Always look for the hidden things!!!!!

  46. Earl says:

    If your trying to figure this out its all straight from TOYOTA.com.

  47. Scott McGill says:

    Keep buying that Jap junk and further drive the US into economic wows. I dont care if the dayam things are built in the US or they might be better in some respects , the profit dollars go out of the country and continent to the Japs. When this happens, it takes the money out of the hands of Americans and reduces the wealth of the economy. Case in point, how many Chev, Dodge and Ford pickups do you see in Japan? None, cause they wont allow them, or they tax them so high at the gate that no one can afford them. Free trade?? What a myth! I really dont care what you buy people , but at least support our country and the people who make it go, so stop buying that foreign stuff cause it is killing our economy. KEEP THE PROFITS IN THE US! BUY AMERICAN!

  48. Matt says:

    Well spoken!!

  49. Mickey says:

    Anonymous how come ford has a recall on it’s gas tank? Also 4 recalls on the 2008 model.

  50. Mickey says:

    Admin Earl is the least bit intrested in a Tundra. Earl didn’t we have this arguement on tundra talk? You just don’t give up. Who’s ranting and raving now? Hey earl what about your 4 recalls on the f-250? who’s got issues? You definitely need to find somthing more constructive with your life. In order to drive a distance you need gas ina tank right earl. There is that recall on the 2007 for the gas tank. How come so many recalls.

  51. Mickey says:

    So Scott I guess people must stick with the piece of domestic junk which constantly breaks down or the issues they have? When the big 3 decides to do customer service then you might keep your customers and therefore be on top. You also contradict yourself by stating people buy what you want then just buy american. You want to tell those people in Alabama, Texas, Indiana etc who make parts and build Toyota’s they don’t need their jobs? You want to pay for there unemployment? You don’t think this will hurt the econmy also?

  52. admin says:

    Scott – Part of the reason that you don’t see many American trucks in foreign countries is that gas costs significantly more overseas than it does here (pretty much across the board). Most of Europe drives small cars, as does Japan. Of course there are exceptions – the Ford Ranger sells quite well in the U.K., and Jeep products are astonishingly popular in China. Your rant against trade is oh so common, but it’s relatively easy to refute:
    1. Toyota is a corporation, and the profits go to the shareholders. The shareholders come from all over the world.
    2. Toyota has vehicles assembled overseas, but so do the domestics.
    3. Even if you believe that buying a foreign car kills our economy, how can you advocate buying one product over another simply on the basis of who made it? That’s a short step away from socialism my friend. People should buy whatever they want – that’s what the U.S.A. is all about.

  53. RICHARD says:

    I HAVE A 2007 TUNDRA 5.7 AND HAD NOTHING BUT PROBLEMS. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THE TRACTION CONTROL, YOU HAVE TO DRIVE WITH IT ON ALL THE TIME, AND USE MORE GAS. IF YOU TURN THE TRACTION CONTROL OFF AND YOU ARE GOING DOWN A HILL THE TRANS WILL DOWN SHIFT AND SOME TIMES NEVER UP SHIFT. SO DRIVING AT 60 MILES AN HOUR YOUR TACH IS AT 4500 OR MAY BE MORE . DEPENDS ON WHEN YOUR TRANS DOWN SHIFTED, IF YOU WERE DOING 40 MILES AN HOUR , YOUR TACK MAY BE 2500 RPMS . DEPENDS ON WHEN IT DOWN SHIFTED. ALMOUST ONE YEAR FIGHTING WITH TOYOTA, THERE ANSWER IS. ALL TOYOTA TUNDRA are made this way, and your not suppose to drive with the traction control off. so now i have to use more gas with the traction control on.

  54. admin says:

    Richard – What you’re saying doesn’t make sense man. I’m guessing a lot of electronic things give you trouble – like the CAPS LOCK key maybe? :-)

  55. RON says:

    FORD ,CHEVY, AND DODGE TRUCKS HAVE BEEN USED BY FARMERS,RANCHERS AND CONSTRUCTION WORKERS IN THE U.S .FOR MANY DECADES.TOYOTA HAS ALREADY TAKEN BILLIONS OUT OF THE U. S ECONOMY AND WITH DISREGARD TO THE AMERICAN COMPANIES POSITION ,STARTED TO GET IN THE FULL TRUCK MARKET-IT HARDLY SEEMS FAIR?

  56. RON says:

    THE AMERICAN TRUCK MAKERS HAVE BEEN BUILDING TRUCKS FOR OVER 90 YEARS AND NISSAN AND TOYOTA HAVE BECOME COPYCATS OF THEM AND OUT OF DISREGARD FOR THE AMERICAN COMPANIES,THEY ARE TRYING TO STEAL AWAY THE MARKET.THEIR ACTIONS HAVE STARTED TO HURT AMERICAN COMPANIES .

  57. Mickey says:

    Ron
    Looks like the farmers evovled.

  58. JD says:

    I use my trucks for my business and have owned a Sierra, F-150, and a Quad Cab Ram in the past 6 years. I currently drive a ’07 Tundra 5.7 DC 4×4, even though I still own the Sierra and Ram. I agree with the previous comments that you really can’t go wrong with any of the choices- it is more personal preference and comfort than anything. I frequently tow smaller loads- 4k to 7k lbs and all of my trucks do it with ease, however, my Tundra just seems to do it a little easier. It happens to be my truck of choice right now, and may change in a couple of years as the other trucks evolve, but that is the great thing for us, the consumer.

    As for the comments by Scott and others- This is the typical UAW view that has done the most harm to the US auto industry. To think that a vehicle entirely designed and built in the US is bad for the US economy- no matter what badge it carries is extremely closed minded. If you take the overall profits of the auto industry and divide by the number of units produced, you will find that the net profit margin per unit is around $400. Like admin stated before, that $$$ goes to the shareholders of the company. In Toyota’s case, about 20% of them are in the US, so another $80 per Tundra flows back into the US. That leaves approximately $320 per Tundra sold going to Japan….$320 out of a $35,000 vehicle goes to Japan vs. $34,680 going to Engineers, parts suppliers, auto workers, advertising agencies, etc….almost entirely in the US. Contrast this to a Silerado/Sierra with an American badge, but 30+% of parts and assembly being done outside US soil. On the same $35,000 vehicle, $10,500 of it is leaving the US….and this is good for the American economy ??? Most of the blame for this situation shouldn’t rest on the American car companies- they are trying to compete, or the foriegn car companies- they ARE competing…but the UAW. They are handicapping the big 3 and the American public. Think about it- if the other 95% of American workers demanded what the UAW does, prices on everything would skyrocket out of control and we would have uncontrollable inflation.
    The reality in today’s world, unfortunately, is as American companies are increasingly forced to outsource materials and labor, what may be best for America isn’t always an American based company.

  59. Mickey says:

    Great post JD.

  60. admin says:

    JD – Good comment.

  61. rahaman says:

    i have a tundra a toyota tundra and ford f150 the tundra is nothing but stress.
    i use the tundra in the interior once and fail to work then i bought the f 150 th f150 was a big improvement by power and comfort.

  62. bob bill says:

    japs are building good trucks and americans are building good cars….madness

  63. bob bill says:

    ron,
    if american trucks are soooo great then toyota and nissan cant hurt them right?

  64. Justin says:

    Some updates on the ’09 F150 5.4L. Not nearly the HP #’s, but not far off the lb-ft of TQ.

    320hp @ 5200rpm
    390lb-ft @ 3500rpm

    http://www.pickuptrucks.com/ht.....ealed.html

    http://jalopnik.com/391114/200.....o-internet

    And from the original source, which is a forum I frequent.

    http://www.ford-trucks.com/for.....-09-a.html

  65. Justin says:

    Also for comparison, attached are the specs for the Tundra 6spd trans in comparison to the F150’s new 6spd. Ford’s tranny looks to be geared a lot lower than Toyota’s. Ford’s 1st gear is very low.

    Fords ratios:
    1st 4.17:1
    2nd 2.34:1
    3rd 1.52:1
    4th 1.14:1
    5th 0.87:1
    6th 0.69:1
    Reverse 3.40:1

    Toyota ratios:
    1st 3.333
    2nd 1.960
    3rd 1.353
    4th 1.000
    5th 0.728
    6th 0.558

  66. Justin – Good links. The new F150 is going to be a machine for sure. Toyota’s response is definitely going to be interesting – will they answer the call in 2010?

  67. Vick says:

    The fact is that Toyota is looking to the Ford F150 as comparison point. Which means that at some point Toyota is willing to be at the same high level that Ford F150 is?

    Never will happen!!!

  68. Justin says:

    Thanks Admin. Just thought a little update was in order.

    The F150 5.4L is still way off the mark in the HP rating, which isn’t a big suprise to anyone, but they have the lb-ft that everyone expects from Ford. Ford is most likely at their max HP with the 5.4L without an SC. This must be why the 6.2L & 4.4L diesel are in the works.

    The 6spd trans has worked decently well in the Expedition, we’ll have to wait and see if it’ll hold up to the demands/abuse of a truck. Should work well in the towing dept, but most likely won’t increase the 0-60 time greatly.

    I’m sure Toyota’s taking notes of how the competition & public are reacting to the Tundra. Toyota should look at a few of the Tundra’s flaws (tailgate, driveshaft, rust & bed bouce) 1st and fore most. At least that’s the starting point I think Toyota should start with, since the remainder of the truck is nearly flawless. It’ll be interesting to see how everyone responds once the F150 actually gets on the road later this year.

    Vick: So you’re a Ford or Toyota fan? The Ford has had some issues over the years, but the overall truck keeps people coming back. Toyota may just produce a truck that meets/beats the F150 in many aspects, but does fall short in some areas as well. If the Tundra isn’t up to the F150’s level yet, it soon could be. Now sales, that’ll take a little while longer to over take Ford, let alone GM and/or Dodge.

  69. CharlesUsArmyIraq says:

    I have always been a Ford fan, of their cars and trucks. The whole “Ford aint reliable” myth is just a bunch of hogwash if you ask me, I have never had any problems out of my Thunderbird except for the waterpump at 130,000 miles, and my Ranger has ran awesomely since I bought it a few years ago. But I’m not on here to post a comment on a Ford Thunderbird on a Tundra v/s F-150 blog, so with that being said here is what I think.

    First of all, everyone for the most part from what I have seen has made some very valid points for Ford and for Toyota. I personally feel that Toyota is heading in the right direction and I agree with the comment I saw earlier that within a decade or so, I can see the Tundra being the top dog as far as sales go, but no sooner than that. But it all goes back to the underdog having to try harder to get to the top. Which to me, that is why Toyota is investing literally billions into their truck programs, which I am sure they have their best engineers working on as well. It is no secret that when the last generation F-150 went into the design phase, Ford brought together it’s best talent across the board to bring out what we see today as the 04-08 model, which is the best selling vehicle in the world, even more so than Toyota’s Corolla and the Camry as well. This says a lot about what Ford can do when they get it right, and I have a feeling the new F-150 is going to remain the top selling pickup in the US for the next 5 years to come. I have seen the first pics, all the different models that are planned, the different powerplants, the standard equipment list, and Ford has without a doubt outdone themselves on this soon to be released model. It is more appealing to me than the current Tundra, has a more refined look than any previous model, and it is just plain sexy for a pickup truck, especially once you get into the FX series and Lariat editions, they make me want to sale my house just to purchase one. I read on another website that Ford has officially stated that the cost for developing the 2009 F-150 surpassed $1.7 billion, this tells me one thing, Ford is serious about keeping it’s lead in this segment.
    I have seen all the arguments on the numbers and numbers don’t lie. The Tundra beats the the F-150 in a lot of categories when it comes to powertrain/ towing capacity in certain models, and those are all important figures no doubt. I would say that Toyota has done a great job in producing……more to follow.

  70. CharlesUSArmyIraq says:

    this latest edition of the the Tundra, I had a chance last year to drive my best friends ’06 Tundra, and that thing was a dream to be behind the wheel, even with the smaller 4.7, it had some get up and go. It felt to me more like I was driving a car than a big truck and in that aspect I was impressed, very comfortable. I can just hope that with the ’07 and up models that this drive quality has been carried over, because I am seriously thinking about purchasing a 2009 Tundra when I return stateside, that being of course if Toyota makes a few more refinements to its current model, there are a few things I am not to pleased with, one being the interior build quality, I had a chance to check out a few different editions of the ’08 Tundra before I deployed and I would have to say that while fresh looking, the overall quality felt lower than my friends ’06 edition, and this surprised me. Of course a lot of what I am saying is just opinion based, but I have read on an online review elsewhere that they felt the same, so Toyota is seems to be out of character when it comes to this issue, maybe it was for cost cutting purposes? Another thing that has me thinking is the fact that Ford has such an awesome looking interior planned even with the cheaper models planned for later this year. At any rate, I love the 5.7/mated with the 6 speed auto idea, but now that Justin has posted the ’09 F-150 6 speed gear ratio specs, I really don’t think there is any comparison between the two, Ford is going to be the hands down winner when it comes to towing capacity. My only gripe with Ford, and I think this is contributing to Fords overall lead deminishing over the past few years is the fact that they can’t seem to produce an engine to compete directly with Dodge’s 5.7 Hemi, Toyota’s 5.7 iForce, or even Nissan’s 5.6 V-8. Of course, I believe that that this has been more by choice simply because of the sheer volume of trucks they have to produce, while staying out of the emissions spot light at the same time, again just a thought that I have had. But I can only hope that for Ford’s sake, and Alan Mulally’s too, they will be smart enough to see that their user base needs something more than just a 10hp increase in power, they need bragging rights! All my buds tell me, who drive nasty Dodge’s, that Ford trucks are gutless, and considering the fact that the Tundra has an 80hp gain over the 5.4, they are right. This to me is not an issue that can’t be overlooked for much longer if Ford expects to remain the sales leader for the next decade, even with all the new CAFE standards in place. But I am just giving you an outsiders perspective, I am not leaning toward either truck, I don’t own either the F-150 or the new Tundra, but I can say that the choices are getting harder to make as the competition picks up, no pun intended, and from the way it is looking, we could be seeing another Taurus being toppled by the mighty Camry story within the next few years, I can just hope that Ford has learned from it’s past mistakes in order to remain competitive. I personally think they will be just fine.

  71. why worry?? says:

    Why are you so worried about Ford they must be a real threat. But if your as good as everyone says it should not matter.

  72. why worry?? says:

    Well after alittle reseach I see why.
    1- the predicted reliabilty.
    2- the current problems with the vehicle.

    It looks like they cant even give them away driving past the dealership. That explains why the dealers lots packed full and huge billboards trying to promote them. Better luck next year!

  73. Anonymous says:

    This is really good to support your cause. Heres a guy with a problem and al you can say ids the following? Why’s that? This site is like a train wreak you dont want to see it but you can not look away.
    Its so stupid its funny!! Good job ADMIN!!

    ADMIN: Richard – What you

  74. Anonymous – Thank you.

  75. bob bill says:

    I hope the new f150 will have a heated tail gate so my hands dont get cold when im pushing it along the highway

  76. why worry?? and anonymous – If you want to be taken seriously, how about leaving a real name when you post?

  77. cesar says:

    I dont know why all of you are hating before 2001 my dad and I we use to own a ford F-150 and well my neighbor had a 4.7l tundra and we tested and tundra wus better in everyway(except the rear set) Now its 2008 and we own a 2001 4.7l tundra which is mine and has a supercharger. a 2003 sequoia, 2004 tundra double cab and we got a 08 tundra about 2 months ago and it hauls so much we drove a 08 f-150 and u cant compare it in anyway also from the 03-06 tundra model was a 4.7 and 07 tundra went up to a 5.7 and it actually got better gas our 04 it said 13 and 17 our 08 says 14 and 17 so it got like 100hp more and 1mpg better which is really good. Another thing 09 ford f-150 is using lighter materials and is practically coping tundra the titan is a 5.6l but it still doesn’t compare either our 04 4.7 can compare to it and thats a smaller motor. All i know ford wont get better and also remember this the tundra hasn’t even been around for 10 years and look at what they have created a beast how long has ford f-150 been around way more time
    and we already added performance things lil tune up here and there and our tundra is a beast already it has bout 450hp and i don’t remember the torque but i know it was like 480lbs or a lil less like 470lbs
    04 tundra its like stock just flowmaster
    01 tundra has supercharger flowmaster tune ups programing chips and other lil stuff and it has 410hp and 438lbs of torque its not really a good towing though lol but its super quick
    im a toyota fan and well toyota is winning so far and I will have to wait until 09 for this new so called “BOSS” but i dont think it will be better than toyota
    and its going to have a PLATINUM edition come on couldn’t they think of another name toyota already has that

  78. Eric says:

    this is my second F150,and i’m not looking to change to another brand of pickup.i’ve looked at the Tundra and was simply turned off.The design left me with one word:cheap.If i want a toyota in my driveway,it would definitely be the Tacoma.the Tacoma is superior to the Tundra.The F150 is the “benchmark” to what a pickup is supposed to be.Secondly,too many trucks have tried,but have fallen short of Fords continued success.Funny thing though,it’s no surprise that the 08′ F150 is still the number one selling pickup truck in america.GM,as well as Toyota debuted new trucks,but you see where they are at(the bottom of the field).All of them: Dodge,GM,and Toyota have two things in common: they all make more power,but they’re also trailling the king.(the F150).The F150 will continue to be #1.don’t hate the messenger,but the message.it’s not a slam on the other companies,but simply a fact.

  79. Justin says:

    per cesar: Glad to hear you’re enjoying your Tundra. They are great trucks. Only issue that many people are now realizing, is hp/lb-ft don’t make a truck. It’s the entire truck. For more than 20yrs Ford has been behind the competition in the hp/lb-ft aspect, but continue to be the #1 seller. The ’09 F150 is using lighter but stronger frame material, which the frame is still fully boxed. Not exactly copying the Tundra. And exactly why won’t Ford get better? Seems like a lot of the reviews out lately are stating Ford is now equal to Honda & Toyota in quality, so isn’t that getting better/improving? Or does this simply mean that Honda & Toyota quality is declining?

    The Platinum Edition coming out is replacing the Lincoln Mark LT. There will be 2 editions of the Boss (Hurricane) 6.2L motor. An N/A version estimated to produce between 400-450 lb-ft, while the EcoBoost (Twin-Force) is estimated to make roughly 600lb-ft. So these should compete, if not surpass the Toyota in what you refer to as a “Beast” aspects.

    Also, why is everyone all about speed in 6000# trucks these days? This does not tell the truth about what a truck can do. Heck if you want speed, get a Cummins or Powerstroke Diesel slightly tuned and they’ll knock the socks off any gas equipped truck, as well perform better in all truck aspects.

    Too each their own though. Glad you’re happy and hope you enjoy your Tundra.

  80. Mike says:

    Stumbled on to this site while reasearching the 2009 1/2 ton offerings of the different manufactuers. I have a couple of points I would like to make in response to Eric’s post
    1. Tundra cheap??? The build quality is far superior to a Ford. Many Ford people wouldn’t even dispute that.
    2. F-150’s # 1 sales ranking is true when you take Chevy & GMC sales separately; combine the two and they trounce Ford. GMC & Chevy have been the same trucks for at the least the past twenty five years, just badged differently.
    3. Watch a Ford commercial…swinging a truck in a centrifuge by it’s tow hooks—boy that’s real life–NOT…and not even the least impressive! Ford wouldn’t dare try some of the real life demonstrations that Toyota puts the Tundra through in it’s commercials. Why? Because the F-150 wouldn’t be able to pull them off.

    4. Real life towing situations & configurations? the Tundra smokes the F-150.

    I’ve had three Fords, two Chevys, two Toyotas and one Dodge…. and have brand loyalty to NONE. They all have their strong and weak points.
    Let’s get real…right now the Tundra trumps the F-150 by a wide margin, it’s a lot more truck for the money.

  81. dj says:

    the ford f-150 is still going to have the same 5.4l are they serious it is going to be the weakest half- ton . ford has not had a more powerful engine in almost 10 years . and ford will lose best selling truck and will start back a year 1 and i hope that drivers talk radio guys shuts the truck OFF built ford soft

  82. Justin says:

    DJ: Same motor, but bump in hp/lb-ft, 6spd trans and some with a locking rear diff. They’ve already got some tests videos up on youtube.

    Now a question for you. When was the last time the truck with the most powerful engine was the #1 seller? And you think a big motor and more hp/lb-ft are a strong marketing point today with all the worries about fuel prices?

    There is a lot more to a truck than simply the motor. Ford has been behind the competition for years in the hp dept, but they continue to sell better than any one brand. So the buying puplic and #’s show that a motor isn’t what its all about. It’s the whole package.

  83. Mickey says:

    Mike Great point….Hey Justin why ford is publicizing it’s tow hooks?? I take it a Ford owner will try to tow something the poor truck can’t pull so the tow hooks will help him out…Or maybe the constant breaking down or like my 03 the computer issues it had which took over 10x to fix. You keep stating back it’s the whole truck, not just the engine. Justin be honest with yourself, look at all the used car lots etc. Which vehicles you see out there. I know you can name 3 but you know Toyota trucks are not out there…Why is that? I’ll put one to you, mass production doesn’t make you the best, or the best product. That’s why your company is in financial jeopardy. I can’t wait for my taxes to bail out Ford like we did for Dodge. Now you want to go back 25+ years about your almighty ford. How long has Toyota been in the big truck market? Yep you have a problem. Everyone is saying the 1st/2nd generation Tundra were just an upgraded Taco. So the 07 was the first big truck out. You like everyone else is showing that fear in your eyes. By right you should be. Justin you touched on several areas and made valid points but one area you never brought up and it made me wonder why he never brought up customer service/satisfaction. That’s where you keep customers when you look for vehicles. You need to know how this works with your vehicle you are looking at. Your truck maybe #1 but if your satisfaction/service isn’t do you really think these days people will return to your product? I’ll use me as an example I had an 97 Thunderbird, 03 Crown Victoria, 03 F-150. The 97 I had for 5 years the wife liked the car very much on appearance and color. After 28 times in the shop how much will you still like the car? I figured I would give Ford another try only because after 5 dealerships I found one that was great on customer service. So I bought both 03’s there. The crown vic was a great ride really enjoyed the smoothness of it until you put it in the shop 23x for electronic problems like the windows, sensors, and tranny problems like the Thunderbird. I kept it for 4 years and traded it in for a Prius. Now we go to the mighty F-150. I will mention just the computer problems besides the recalls on it. It was in 10x to try and fix the computer. I only had it for 3 years and couldn’t take no more of it. Let’s talk about the value of your products. I know you won’t go there. Try an explain to me buying a Crown Vic your top dog car depreciates $18,000 in two years? If I did my research and saw that I wouldn’t have bought that vehicle. You know the new kid is in town taking over your territory since you and GM decided to move out of the country to make your products. Now this talk about our economy going sour because I bought a Toyota. Well sorry I bought 2 at the same time. Let me enlightened the whole group out there. Where was you last TV, VCR, DVD, Radio etc made from? Where does your coffee come from? I can go on and on about this. So any of you who try this buy American need only to look in your own backyard before you talk.

  84. Justin says:

    Mickey: Tow hooks are used by people who actually use their truck for its intended purpose. My friend was trying to pull a tree stump roughly 6-8 months ago with his ’04 Silverado, but one of his hooks bent out. Tried it with my F150 (’06), no problem with the hook. Tow hooks may be a minor and overlooked detail, but some people need them to be strong.

    Constant breaking? Think this is simply your opinion rather than factual basis. I can go to just as many Toyota forums and find peoples cars breaking down. All vehicles, no matter make/model, break down. Sure some more than others, but it’s all relative. We can talk about the Tundra tailgate seperating or the Tacoma frame rust or engine sludge, but neither of those prove whether the truck is better or not. If it took over 10X’s to fix your truck, you should work with a better dealership/mechanic. The truck may have had an issue, but it’s not always the brands fault, many times I’ve found it to be the techs. I owned an ’02 F150 5.4L Scab Lariat FX4 that was flawless, not one issue other than the CC recall in the time I owned it. Heck I’d still be driving it had someone not run a red light causing me to broadside them.

    Hmm used car lots, most common car? Do you have factual basis for this one? I’ll agree with you it just might be the F-Series, but also remember, when you’re selling 500K, 600K, 700K, 800K trucks each year, with many being leases, you’re gonna see a lot on used car lots. Even on purchases, I see many people trading their cars in within 5-6yrs. Just because I see a lot of one vehicle on a lot doesn’t automatically make me assume it’s because it’s a bad vehicle. Many times it’s the shear volume of sales, lease and rental fleet returns. Oh and Toyota trucks aren’t on the list because they don’t sell nearly as many as the domestics. Of course I see many more Tacomas on lots than 1st Gen. Tundras, but that’s due to the difference in sales figures/production.

    No Mass production doesn’t make you #1, but sales do. So if the F150 is such a bad truck, why has it been the #1 selling 1/2 ton for over 30yrs? Many are existing Ford customers, many are 1st time buyers. Why since Toyota has started moving up the sales figures chart (mass production) and are now back and forth with GM for the #1 spot, has their quality slipped? Don’t say it hasn’t, because there have been a lot more problems and recalls by Toyota since 2000 than I ever saw from them in the 70’s, 80’s or 90’s.

    Now all the domestics have put themselves in a bad financial situation, but this doesn’t mean they build a bad truck. Just because Toyota is in a good financial situation doesn’t mean they make a good truck. In all honesty, it’s the Ford trucks that have kept Ford alive all these years, making up for their lackluster cars in the past. Also, Toyota doesn’t have to worry about paying their people as much $ and deal with unions as often as the domestics, providing a better financial situation for Toyota in the 1st place. Have to look at the cost it takes to build a vehicle not just the sales numbers to determine some of the companies financial situations. Heck, Toyota has been cited as a “sweat shop”. Here’s a couple links for your review.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/0.....ts-abuses/
    http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562

    Taxes bailing out Ford, please. They are hurting, but you are exaggerating just a bit. Toyota has been in the full size truck market since about ’93, with the T100. Each model has gotten better and bigger and more powerful. They needed to to compete. The T100 and 1st Gen Tundra sales didn’t compare. Now this 2nd Gen is looking to be good competition for the domestics, never said it wouldn’t be. But Ford is still selling roughly 3X’s the trucks, which is the #1 individual brand truck seller, let alone what Dodge & GM produce.

    Customer service was a big issue for quite a while with Ford, I do agree. This has detered customers like yourself, and I don’t blame you. I’ve owned 8 vehicles, with 6 being Ford trucks.Never once have I had a significant problem with any other than the ’99 Explorer. That thing was a money pit and the only Ford SUV I’ve owned. Which it never had major issues, just little minor problems. I did have problems with the dealership I was dealing with at the time, but have since gone to a different dealership and customer service as well as the mechanics are much better.

    Funny how all the Toyota fans try to knock the domestics for going outside the US to build their vehicles at a cheaper rate, but fail to realize it is simply to gain equal ground with the likes of Honda/Toyota and many other foreign automakers. How many plants does Ford have running in the US compared to Toyota? How many vehicles are produced from these plants? How many US workers do each employee? You’ll notice in each situation, it is Ford that has more, which in the end costs more per vehicle to manufacturer. So tell me, why is it okay for Toyota to build vehicles outside the US, but it is not okay for the domestics? Just becuase one is domestic and the other foreign, doesn’t mean neither can build within/outside the US.

    Now I’ve never stated you need to buy “American”, tell me in any of my posts where I’ve stated that. All I’ve done is try to provide people and objective opinion when they are in the market for a full size pickup. I’ve always admitted the Tundra has a very nice drivetrain and poweplant, but also admit that this one part of a vehicle doesn’t make the whole truck. Disliked the looks, the ultra thin sheet metal, interior quality/fit & finish (interior quality isn’t nearly what I expect and used to from Toyota), extremely sloped windshield and the vents that move on their own. Not one Tundra I test drove kept its vents in place. These are simply my opinions, yours may differ.

    Heck, even my mother in laws neighbor traded an ’04 or ’05 Ram QuadCab for the ’07 Tundra CrewMax 5.7L. He let me know, he liked some aspects of the Tundra better, and some of the Dodge better. His lease was up so he wanted the newest most powerful truck on the dealers lots. He admitted he likes the truck, but kind of regrets that the only reason he bought it was since it was the most powerful. He hates the bed bounce, that his dealership hasn’t been able to cure, hates he can’t stand on the tailgate without it bowing, dislikes the thin sheet metal as it’s easier to dent than his Ram was, dislikes the control placement, but he loves the room in the back seat compared to his QuadCab. This is why I tell everyone, look at all aspects of a truck before purchasing, not just how many ponies does it have and how many gears in the tranny. You may end up finding this isn’t the vehicle you really want, even if it sounds nice.

    Mickey, so I’m sorry to hear all your bad run ins with Ford and I’m glad you are happy with Toyota. I have nothing against Toyota or any foreign brands, heck my wife drives an ’04 Altima & I owned a Sentra SE-R back in the 90’s. To each your own. If you feel the Toyota is a better truck, great more power to you. I fealt differently. Before I purchase any vehicle, I shop and test drive the Big 6 for me (Ford, Dodge, Chevy, Nissan, Toyota & Honda). This is why my wife dirves the Altima, this is why I drive the F150. For our likes/dislikes and needs, these fit the best. Even drove the 2nd Gen. Tundra prior to purchasing my F150. Yes I was impressed by the 5.7L and the 6spd trans, but nothing else was heads and shoulders above the F150, other than the price tag. I liked the sound of the bigger brakes, but in normal driving they were hardly noticable. Now if I was towing on a consistent basis, they may have made a more significant difference in my purchase.

    I do not knock the Tundra, it fits most peoples needs, just like any other 1/2 ton. Just hate it when people like to knock one brand or another because it’s an XYZ and have little to no experience with the model they’re refering to. May have had expereince with older models, may even had a lemon, but this doesn’t tell the whole story for a make or model.

  85. Mickey says:

    Okay Justin I’ll give you your piece but when a trend begins like you said bed bounce and tailgate for Toyota and for me at the time was besides the computer B/S that model design I think was Fords best seller but it was plaque with serious problems. The worse was the safety issue in a crash and the cruise control fire issue recalls. Besides the terrible dealings with the dealers at the Ford place which wasn’t just the tech. When you take every dang computer out of every truck in the lot and have the same missfire in #5 cylinder along with the service manager, general manager etc all tell you they can fix my truck what am I suppose to do? The only thing that kept me going was my salesman who was there when this was going on suggested replacement vehicle. I was gamed for that. Just to be told later forget it. I got kicked to the curb on that. That left a real bad taste in my mouth. But to give you your due I would consider a Ford before GM. They are the worse in customer service I’ve ever seen. Justin my wife and I had an 97 thunderbird which she liked but plenty trips to the shop. In all close to 30 I think. I had it for 5 years. I traded it in when warranty went out and had 2 trips to the shop after which I was supprised Ford covered the plastic intake for 7 years. This was without telling owners this issue they had with intakes. That’s not good to keep secrets. Then after that fixed radiator went out 3 days later. It ran pretty hot for the intake so I tried to argue my point about the radiator and didn’t work. So I traded it in on a 03 Crown Victoria LX sport. I really didn’t see this coming that car depricated $18,000 in 2 years. I hate cop cars. Then it held steady for the next 2-3 years at $12,000. The car was a great ride I grant you that. Put you to sleep very easy in the pass seat. Only problem that plaqued it too like the truck 16mpg. It had it’s visit with the electrical stuff but that was okay with me. The only problem was the wife wanted mpg’s and didn’t care about the ride. So those were my 3 ford’s I had. I still like the Vic and if I get out of the truck the Vic is the only 4 door car I would ever go with. Also another problem they don’t do wedgewood blue no more. I love the purple tint in the evenings and mornings. Justin I do have to travel for a couple of weeks I’ll catch you later for your response. I do have to give it to you for going to other sites and letting people know about your Ford.

  86. Mickey says:

    Justin buddy what happen? “8.7 billion loss and Now Ford turns to small cars”. Say it isn’t so. Those are the big headlines on then internet. I knew the trucks carried Ford. BTW I wanted to ask you which way would you pull using the tow hooks and why? The reason I’m thinking is I would only use reverse when using the tow hooks. If I’m using reverse and it’s a high gear I would lose traction faster on a high gear than forward. So if you drive forward using tow hooks why not use your hitch in the back?

  87. aj says:

    you guys can go on an argue about how this truck is better then that truck but numbers dont lie and the f150 is still the champ you wanna know why??? when i was 15 my dad bought a brand new 2002 f150 my dad is a contractor one of the biggest in the philadelphia area and to many guys under his pay roll to count they all 1 by one toyota lover nissan lover etc went to ford bought an f150 STILL ALL TO THIS DAY HAVE 1 none of them do i hear complaining about problems because thier isnt any they are trucks they do the job they do it damn good they are the best lookin not the fastest but they will be in 2009 so u can sit hear and argue about ur pos jap crap wannabe truck but pull ur pos next to my 08 limited f150 and u will wanna shit you pants so just shut up already with this nonsence toyota will never be AMERICAN and u wanna know something im not american im israeli and depite that my whole family owns fords and cadillacs not one of them owns a foreign car and we never had problems with any one of them but the funny part is that my dads parter owns 2 toyotas one honda the honda is a new pilot and the toyotas are a camry which is new and a sequoia whhich is a 03 and all 3 of those cars had been in the shop a few times now and not to mention that pos seqoia so shut up with this my car is a jap its better cause its not and dont ever attempt to compare the truck that built america to some crap horrible looking wannab asian thing thankyou i gave u my 2 cents now rant on

  88. aj – Please check your keyboard for the key with the “.” on it. This dot, technically known as a “period,” makes your comments much easier to read. It also would lend some credibility to your argument as it would demonstrate you’ve had some sort of education.

  89. Justin says:

    AJ: Like the admin (Jason) stated, a period, some form of grammar and basis other than “well my dad and his partner” couldn’t hurt prooving your point. Being I have backed the F150 on this site for a while, it’s posters like you that give other F150 or Ford owners a bad name. No need for name calling and who cares about your ethnicity, it’s about which truck is better, no matter who the make is or where they are located. The Tundra is American made and supports American workers, this is good no matter how you look at it. And I’m sure there are plenty of Fords that have been in the shop a time or two, not just foreign brands. So thanks for being a die hard Ford fan, next time though, please come with a little more than this.

  90. Mickey says:

    Aj just shut up and join the unemployment line with your ford buddies. By the way your friends won’t admit to you that they have problems with their truck because of the peer pressure. Also learn about where your inferior product is made before you put yor american foot inside of it. Ohh yeah what was that loss last quarter 8.7 billion???? That’s why your company is in financial problems by mass producing and Unions. So you have fun with your inferior product utilizing it’s tow hooks and learn SPELL CHECK.

  91. Justin says:

    Mickey: Fords been too dependent on SUV’s & Trucks over the years and have slowly tried to shift some emphasis to the smaller car market. Just a little late now. They are working with FOE (Ford of Europe) to bring some of their products over and to work together on building future releases. A lot of the $8.7B were one-time cash items like Ford’s contribution to VEBA. That $4.5 billion contribution happened in Q1. So, really, they’ve burned roughly $3.5 billion while operating this year.

    Now I don’t tow using my tow hooks. Use them for getting people unstuck or say pulling out a tree stump. Most people don’t use their front tow hooks when in drive, like you stated usually hooked to the rear frame or to the hitch/tow pkg. Usually reverse is a short gear (numerically tall), depending on the vehicle application.

  92. Mickey says:

    That’s why I asked which way about the tow hooks. I use my hitch only once in a 98 silverado to pull out a stump. Never had to do it again. Ford will probably start making gains in late 09 when they sell more small economical vehicles. I still prefer the Crown Vic.

  93. Mickey says:

    Wow the coward speaks without leaving a name… You say get a life you’re on here also. Man did I hurt your feelings for the name calling? Apparently you better start reading your own gossip and find out where your company is. I gave ford 3 times to get it right. But unlike you commenting on a ford vs Toyota reeally shows you like neither. So who needs a life….Look in the mirror before you speak KID we had this conversation before. Boils down to you being a sore loser and you just can’t have it your way. Now you state the site is full of liars but you keep coming back so who’s the fool the one who leads or in your case the one who follows.

  94. Justin says:

    Anonymous: Thanks for your educated response and such insightful display, or lack there of, the products at hand. Just a shame the image you portray for the fellow domestic owners. If you dislike the Tundra that much, say so, but with some reasoning why and facts/figures to back up your opinion. Otherwise this name calling and idiotic mumbo jumbo just displays the typical childish acts of those that post on say youtube. So again, thank you for well, nothing much at all, since your post lacked any reasonable factors on why the F150 is better than the Tundra.

  95. Justin says:

    FYI on July ’08 Sales: F-Series line down 11,659 units or down 20% from July ’07. Tundra down 9,737 units or down 42% from July ’07. F-Series over 319K sales for ’08, Tundra hasn’t topped 90K sales for the year but are close.
    ———-
    -Ford F-Series
    -July 2008: 44,829
    -July 2007: 56,488
    ———–
    -Toyota Tundra
    -July 2008: 13,413
    -July 2007: 23,150

    http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/otf0999.html

  96. “Anonymous” – All stupid comments will be deleted. All anonymous stupid comments will be ridiculed, then deleted.

  97. Justin says:

    Admin: Thanks! Always nice to have an Admin that’ll keep the forum/blog in order and remove idiotic comments that have no justification and are simply posted to stir the pot a little/lot. We don’t want another youtube comment seciton on our hands!

  98. Mickey says:

    Justin appreciate the words written above. That guy was on Tundratalk.net and we got into there. All trucks are taking a beaten right now. I’m sure we will all regain towards the end of the year once the economy gets rolling. I know this is tough on all manufacturers but it is also an eye opener.

  99. Justin says:

    Mickey: Hey, never a problem. I like to read other good reviews like everyone else. I like my eyes to be openned when I’m wrong. Just when you get these posters on a site, they take more away than they contribute. If a site isn’t properly monitored (again Admin/Jason, good job), these trolls or even the rah rah cheerleaders can drive away some of the good people that enjoy the site.
    —–
    Yeah, all trucks/suvs are hurting, big time. I’m sure once the economy starts to gain and the fuel prices stabalize, we’ll see this segment start leveling off. Don’t think it’ll ever get back to the numbers we had from say ’95-’05, but it’ll pick back up. Also I wish I could get an exact break out of the figures listed above, but I’m curious to know of the 44.8K F-Series sold, how many were actually 1/2 tons vs 3/4 & 1 tons. Help us better gauge the F150 sales to the Tundra and other 1/2 tons.
    —–
    Now these numbers aren’t hurting Toyota as much as say Ford, due to their good spread with small/mid size cars, but Ford isn’t so lucky and is what partly lead to such a big loss last quarter. Ford had/has too much reliance on trucks/suvs. Ford has many projects on the horizon, but it’s a little too late. These domestics that are trying to rush out the compacts will find the market different by the time they are released (2, 3, 4 years away) and lots will then be flooded with small cars.

  100. Justin – Thank you.

  101. Mickey says:

    Justin I do agree. I still believe it will come back, maybe not as much but I have faith it will. As far as the numbers don’t beat yourself up over it. It’s nice to know but they may want to keep that a secret.

  102. Jim says:

    It appears the “my thingy is bigger than your thingy” is as bad here as it is on my motorcycle forums. Quite funny, and yet somewhat sad at the same time. I have never fallen into the brand loyality rut, and when the incentives are enough I’m liable to try anything, even a Dodge :)
    My ’03 F-150 Supercrew is the best truck of the 12 I’ve owned, it has 106,000 trouble free miles on it. It is sitting at the local Toyota dealer tonight however while a new Tundra is outside my door to probably be purchased tomorrow. I’ve tested every 1/2 ton full sized truck available at the moment, and here are MY rankings.

    #1. Toyota
    #2. Ford

    The ’09 Ford may change my mind, but can’t wait long enough to find out. (I try real hard not to buy first year models of anything and don’t want to wait until 2010 to replace my truck). Hopefully the Tundra’s resale will be as good as other Toyotas, and not like my F-150 when I do get rid of it down the road.
    I was disappointed with the ’08 GMC I test drove, it’s a shame because I have a good friend that owns a dealership. Nissan and I parted ways in ’02, and if not for Dodge would be the ugliest trucks made (this is merely my preference, beauty is always in the eye of the beholder ;) ).

  103. reid says:

    You can say im a troll or what ever but I own a 2008. Heres my review that I posted on AOL. “Truck falls apart dont listen to the mag experts they have no clue what a truck owner needs!”. I have read in a forum that somebody here has to wax the chrome on the bumper to keep the corrosion from getting to bad. Does that sound like quality? It pretty funny how you only put your own facts on the site how about putting the truth. I can not get rid of this truck if I was giving it away! But admin will delete this and poke fun like this response,
    admin (Jason) Said in July 27th, 2008 @9:31 pm aj – Please check your keyboard for the key with the

  104. Justin says:

    Reid: Not a Tundra owner, not much of a Toyota fan either. But I’d like to know what model ’08 (SR5, CrewMAx, etc) you have, motor and the features. Also, what do you mean by “the truck falls apart”, this is not specific enough to know what problems you’ve experienced. Please post a link to your post on AOL as where we could find your review. The Tundra has its issues, like the waxing of the chrome bumpers. But keep in mind all vehicles have their fair share of issues. Just have to hope the manufacturers work out all the issues.
    —Now since you do own an ’08 and now you dislike it so much, tell us why you purchased the truck in the first place. There had to be a reason why you liked it enough to buy it.
    —Depends on the mag you read and the review you will get. Consumer Reports last I checked, doesn’t recommend this truck. That is after initially giving it a pass simply because it was a Toyota, but reversed course after so many problems came about in the ’07 MY. Can’t say this will hold true for the ’08 MY and C.R. review. I do notice many car mags simply think this truck is the best, based mostly on 0-60 times and hp/lb-ft figures. Not saying any mag is right or wrong, just each person has their personal preference.
    —I applaud the Admin for his auditing of the site. Rarely have I seen him remove a post, but when done it’s usually due to appropriate reasons. Punctuation does lend to credibility and helps people understand what a person is trying to convey. Cap Locks and run-on sentences look and feel like a person is ranting and raving just to stress their point. Those kind of posters are usually “Trolls” (which I’m not calling you one) or “Cheerleaders”.
    —Now your dealings with not being able to sell the truck doesn’t impact just you or Tundra owners. All trucks/suvs are taking a hit, no matter if you are selling it yourself or trying to trade in. I know if I tried trading/selling my F150, I wouldn’t get what I feel the truck is worth, possibly not even what I owe.

  105. Mickey says:

    Well reid you may accept what was written, but when every sentence runs into another without a separation tends to throw you off and makes it hard to read. I also have good news for you reid. Your choice….You can read something else if you don’t like what’s put here. At least you have Pro’s and Con’s. Not just one way. It may not be the way you want but that’s your choice. Also waxing your bumper puts a coat on it, just like your paint to protect it. That has nothing to do with quality. It’s called protection.

  106. Mickey says:

    Justin just the 4×4’s are not recommended. Small I mean small print the 2×4 have no issues.

  107. Mickey says:

    Also forgot Justin you know C/R was very Bias on that issue. Especially how can you rank a 4×4 the best and not test it. I know they got caught by recommending before the recall but the other manufacturers had recalls also but that had no decision which does irritate me. I beleive they should test everything then report on that. They were wrong when they took Toyota for it’s name. Then still it gives them no excuse to go out and do it wrong again. They will learn 2 wrongs don’t make it right.

  108. Justin says:

    Mickey: Now you are correct that CR recommended the 2×4 model, but not the V8 4×4 models. Interesting, since there is very little difference between the 2×4 & 4×4 models, other than the transfer case and a few other components. From what I’ve read, most recall items, TSB’s and other known issues aren’t isolated to the 4×4 models, so I’d like to see how CR determined the 4×4 weren’t recommended but the 2×4 was. Could it possibly be that 4×4 owners put their trucks thru more abuse and expect a higher return on performance than 2×4 owners, so more problems arose and/or were reported with the 4×4’s? We don’t know all the factors on why the 2×4 was and the 4×4 wasn’t recommended.
    ***
    Now you call CR bias during this issue, but if you look from the other side, CR has been biased for years towards Toyota and certain other makes. The recalls weren’t the only items to keep CR from recommending the 4×4 model, as these recalls also impacted many of the 2×4 models. I do not see where they did two wrongs. CR recommended the Tundra based on Toyota reputation only without testing the truck. After problems came about, they removed this recommendation, which is appropriate. They were correcting their original and incorrect assumption. Like you stated, all vehicles need testing, no matter make/model. Many changes can be made from year to year and who’s to say these changes won’t/don’t impact the quality and recommendability (is that a word?) of a vehicle. This also bit CR it the rear on the Camry V6/6spd and AWD Lexus GS. So to me, reputation is nice, but if a magazine is expected to review vehicles, they better do their job, not cut corners and rate based on previous models.
    ***
    Here’s a link regarding the above.
    http://www.autoobserver.com/20.....armor.html

  109. Reid – I haven’t deleted comments that disagree with our viewpoint here, but I HAVE deleted profane and/or pointless comments and I will continue to do so. So long as your comments have a point and they don’t contain any profanity (or spam), they will be posted. I can’t believe you’ve taken issue with me mocking aj’s ranting un-punctuated comment – the cornerstone of this person’s argument is that their dad is a big time Philly contractor, and he had a great F150 blah blah blah. Your comment was much better than that. As for your point about waxing a chrome bumper, I agree. It’s total BS. That’s why we sent out a press release about Toyota’s bumper problems.
    http://www.prleap.com/pr/118506/

  110. Mickey says:

    Justin I agree with most of what you said but there was only one recall for the 4×4 propeller shaft. That has nothing to do with the 2×4.

  111. reid says:

    08 CMAX 4X4 SR5. The reasons I dislike my truck. Well I dont like to spend $40K for a truck that is corroding and it is not even a year old. The fact I worry about using my tailgate due to the fact it may give and fracture under weight of a load, why whould you even sell a bed extender then???? The stereo and 4X4 system have problems like unable to disengage the 4X4 and stereo will not turn on, dealer says its fine. I bought this thing for the following reasons: towing, interior room and Toyota so-called Quailty. If this truck can tow SO much why did I have to have a aftermarket electric trailer brake installed?? Why does my trailer sqaut the rear end and make me feel like im driving a plane (always looking at the sky). Is that normal?? I guess I need to by a weight dist. hitch that I never need before with a half ton.

    So Mickey is it Quailty that makes a truck that I have owned for 8 months rust?? If it is the domestics really make a poor product. Here is a excerpt from the link ADMIN posted:

    The question here isn

  112. Reid – If you’ve decide that your experience with your Tundra will keep you from buying another Toyota, more power to you. Of course, if that’s how you feel, I’m certain you can understand why millions of Americans have vowed to never buy another Ford, GM, or Chrysler. There’s no denying that 20 years ago, the difference in quality was profound. I know a lot of folks who had major quality problems with a domestic in the 80’s and 90’s, and these people have told me they will never buy another domestic again simply out of principal. Sounds a lot like what you’re saying. The difference is that we have lots of data to support the conclusion that domestic quality sucked for the 80’s and most of the 90’s. We have very little data to support that fact now (either way). When it comes time to buy, we all have to guess that whatever we get will be of good quality. The good news is that all new vehicles are pretty good – especially compared to what was being sold 10-20 years ago.

  113. Anonymous says:

    Reid easily put about the trailer brakes you knew well in advance the truck had none and you still bought it. Well there goes your excuse… IF this is a problem why did you go ahead and buy it. Enough said you made your choice going into it. No excuse there. As far as the tailgate use it like you suppose to. If it fails then Toyota will fix it. Simply put not all tailgates have that issue. Trailer squat Reid let me see…. I know all 1/2 ton trucks will have that issue when you’re pulling 10,000lbs. The only thing I will give you that is ligitimate is the rust on the bumpers. Lugnuts I won’t. Toyota has been rplacing the bumpers that have that issue. You have to follow Toyota’s procedures in getting one. You will have to meet with a rep. Now your bumper may rust but I know mine won’t. Southeastern Toyota Distributors made sure we got the coverage/undercoat etc. for it’s customers. I won’t talk about the radio. If it was a JBL radio then I would be supprised. The other stock radio’s that were put itn are an issue and replaced when you bring your truck in for that issue. Reid for truck of the year that’s just your opinion and others will disagree with you. As for you buying 2 well I did too buy 2 07 Toyota’s at the same time. I have my Tundra and my wife has her Prius. Not to mention totally satisfied. Like I said before not all vehicles are having this issue. Just like Jason mention the reason why I will never buy a Ford or GM again. Reid , Justin has every right like Andrew who’s a GM guy in being here stating their opinions and facts. You need both pro’s and con’s in making a great forum. Shows that this forum isn’t Bias. Try this on other sites and see what you get.

  114. Mickey says:

    Reid those are my comments above. For some reason my name keeps dropping out.

  115. Justin says:

    Reid: Thanks for the response! All your issues regarding the Tundra are valid concerns, expecially when it’s a $40K ride. I know I’d be upset if my truck was having similar problems. Now from what I’ve seen, Toyota is aware of all your concerns and are trying to rectify them. Replacing the bumpers, radio and the tailgate if it does start to separate. My only concern for you is, are the replacements going to correct the problem or will it persist. Now I won’t say the Toyota quality is bad, it’s still quite good, but will simply state it isn’t what it once was or rumored to be.
    ****
    Now how much are you towing to make the truck squat and require a trailer brake? Of course like Mickey stated, anytime you get close to or over 10K lbs in a 1/2 ton, you’ll have noticeable squat. Also with this type of weight a trailer brake should be used. Of course this Tundra is rated like a 3/4 ton, but it truly isn’t. So a 2500 Ram/Silverado & F250 won’t display the squat or need for a trailer brake as much as a 1/2 ton would. To me, a weight distrubution hitch would be recommended as would the trailer brakes, even if you were towing with a true 3/4 ton. These items make for a much safer and enjoyable towing experience, instead of white knuckling it down the road.
    ****
    Which magazine were you looking at for Truck of the Year? Each had their own review, but the most common theme I’ve read is they liked the power output and the car like ride.
    ****
    I’m here for a couple reasons. One, is to try and educate people when in the purchase process to look at all trucks and find what fits them best. Not simply to buy a truck that has the most power, most payload, most room, best looks (subjective), because it’s the latest and greatest, or because of the emblem on the front end, no matter make/model. Two, is to be informed of all competition in the 1/2 ton market, knowing their goods/bads. I want to know what is available the next time I’m due for a new 1/2 ton. I’ll still test drive all makes at the time of purchase, like I did with my current 1/2 ton, but will go in educated and understanding what to look for. Did test drive the Tundra when buying my current truck, but being a 1st MY (will never buy a 1st MY due to bugs needing worked out) and I wasn’t overally impressed except for the power the truck displayed. Plus like Mickey state, go to TundraSolutions or TundraTalk and you’ll be bashed and flamed simply for disagreeing since you own a different 1/2 ton make/model or because you don’t share the same view as them. This is typical of most sites though, so go to some Ford, GM or Dodge sites and the same will occur, it’s not just Toyota/Tundra specific. Here, you can have a decently good debate without being called a troll or cheerleader or flamed up and down.

  116. Mickey says:

    Well put again Justin….. Like it…..

  117. Reid – Justin (the Ford guy) is a welcome contributor here, and it all started when he took us to task for a review. His comments are educated, well-thought-out, and always courteous. THAT’s why a Ford guy is here.

  118. Justin says:

    Thanks Admin.! Your remarks are greatly appreciated.

  119. Justin says:

    For informations distrubution.

    ’09 F150 5.4L 4×2 Supercab & Supercrew (145″ wheelbase) max tow rating is now 11,300lbs
    ’09 F150 5.4L 4×4 SuperCab & Supercrew (145″ wheelbase) max tow rating is now 11,200lbs
    ’09 F150 5.4L 4×4 Supercrew (157″ wheelbase) max tow rating is now 11,100lbs

    pages 252 & 253.

    http://www.motorcraftservice.c.....12og1e.pdf
    *****
    I still would not recommend towing over 9K, maybe up to 10K max in a 1/2 ton. Simply looks like a one ups manship tactic.

  120. Justin – You’re very welcome. Ford’s new numbers are all about maintaining leadership. Like you say, it’s starting to get silly. Still, Ford now looks to be top dog. Let’s see how the rest of the truck turned out…

  121. Justin says:

    Yup, we all know Ford would come out and bump their ratings again. Now with the trailer brake control on the ’09s, this weight is easier to control, but still not suggested. There is no reason at all that we need that much ability in a 1/2 ton, other than the “mines bigger than yours” attitude. Think this will get more people in trouble than it’s worth.
    ****
    Still waiting for the final product like you. It’s been delayed a couple times, but I hear fleet builds should be start soon.

  122. Reid says:

    Ok Justin so what are you saying with the following comments:
    -I still would not recommend towing over 9K, maybe up to 10K max in a 1/2 ton. Simply looks like a one ups manship tactic.
    -Of course this Tundra is rated like a 3/4 ton, but it truly isn

  123. Justin says:

    Reid: My point is almost all 1/2 tons now a days are rated at the bottom of the 3/4 ton field. But, these trucks aren’t built with the dynamics of a 3/4 ton that make them more capable of carrying these loads. Simply look at the frames of any 1/2 ton vs a 3/4 ton. The gauge of steal used and weight of the frame for one is significantly heavier and thicker than the 1/2 tons. Also, the suspension of a true 3/4 ton is much stronger as well, providing more support to carry the load. These items add to the ability to control the load better by countering the weight and supporting the weight being towed much better. Now just because a 1/2 ton is rated at 10K, 11K doesn’t mean you should try it. Sure they probably can tow that much, but stopping and controling the load is a whole different story. I’d love to see any 1/2 ton carry 10-11K lbs through the CO Rockies anyday, let alone on a gusty day. I’ll recommend to any buyer, if you plan on towing near (1-2K lbs depending on make/model & how equipped) the max rating, you should most likely upgrade. I bet the ’09 F150 will tow the 11.3K, but controling and stopping this load on a constant basis will be scary, just like the Tundra, even with the built in trailer brake option.
    ****
    I am happy and sad to see you jump from the Tundra to an F250. Being a Ford fan, this proves my point when trying to tow near the max rating. Sad though, cause I was hoping the Tundra could/would prove everyone wrong about it’s ability as a 1/2 ton rated like a 3/4 ton. With a load of 9200lbs, you shouldn’t be dissappointed with the 250. The 6.8L may drink more than the 5.7L, has less HP than the 5.7L, but the lb-ft is where it’s at in the 3/4 ton class. Sorry to hear about the huge hit you took on trade in, this is an unfortunate issue in today’s market and high fuel prices. Hopefully you’ll be happy in the long run. Please post back your experience with the 250 if/when you get a chance. Both good and bad.

  124. Mickey says:

    Reid first of all, you calling someone racist? I went back all the way to the begining looking at what I wrote. I don’t see the word Boy in them. Anything I wrote to you doesn’t have the word Boy in it. The only word that comes close is the word Kid. There isn’t no one here that’s racist but you Reid. So you and your brothers need to learn how to read first. Second Jason would ban someone if they were doing anything remotely close to that. Reid you have a serious problem. Why is it you call me a racist Reid? You damn right you and your brothers can skip over the comments that aren’t there.

  125. CB says:

    You guys have to forgive me if I sound redundant; I’m tired and about to hit the pillow.

    You have to give props to Ford and heres my reasons why:

    1. They have taken the 5.4 from a measly 210 hp all the way up to 320 to 340 depending on which site you research on the ’09. Not bad, not bad at all.
    2. Torque is the main key and with 390 on tap, that is only about 10 to 15 shy of the mighty 5.7 liters
    3. Ford has done it’s homework, even though we are not buying trucks like we used too; due to the high gas prices but it’s still their bread and butter vehicle.
    4. It’s stronger than any other truck on the road

    A good friend of mine being an ASE mechanic said, they are all good, just take care of them but if you really want a truck that can handle the punishment; get a Ford.

  126. Reid says:

    Justin torque is what moves you from the stand still. Horsepower is the upper end. All of it is useless without a transmission to support it. So how is the Tundra Tranny shutter? The F250 with the 5.4l will tow 12,000 +lbs with less horsepower and torque than the 5.7l so wheres the argument?

    Issue of frames. All frames are not made the same! I asked the dealer if the frame was a issue for the handling of the vehicle under so much weight. They could not say. I asked if the frame is unibody style and still no answer. 3 frames to make one sounds like a unibody to me. But wait are compact cars are manufactured on a unibody frame. yes they are, so what does that say for the Tundra. Is that the reason I was getting a nice view of the sky while I was driving?

    I disagree with the comment of towing so close to the manufactures rating. This is the rating that the manufacture says that the equipment will handle for the longevity of the vehicle with out substaining any damage to the vehicle. So in all actuality the vehicle should be able to tow more. Case in point a friend tows 22,000lb trailer with a 04 F-250, this is about 6,000 lbs over its manufacture rating. He didn’t do it once he does it multiple times a year for serveral hundred miles (OH to Nags head, NC). If you can not tow the manufacture rating then any damages that occur to the vehicle will be cover under the warrenty as long as the owners manual is followed.

    For the comment “controling and stopping this load on a constant basis will be scary, just like the Tundra, even with the built in trailer brake option” I highly disagree. It is obvious you have never towed a trailer with proper brakes installed. I use a tandem axle utility trailer for multiple items including a BOBCAT. With properly adjusted trailer brakes and controller you will not even know that their is a trailer behind you regards of the vehicle. Case in point 55 mph on 2 lane country road 4 days ago with a John Deere 2310 on the trailer a car pulled out infront of me. It was not a issue controlling that vehicle, no trailer sway, nothing. Everything worked as advertised where the Tundra failed.

    What is the issue with the tow hooks? So what if Ford makes a stonger assembly. Try to hook up a chain on a Tundra hook. One issue I found is that they are impractical due to the bumper and air dam. You will damage the truck if you are using it to recover stuck equipment where Ford’s are practical and practical due to the location. The Dodge’s are to weak and brake easily. This is a issue for anyone who is to use them as advertised.

    I beat my truck and expect it to with stand the punishment. But on the other hand all service is mantained at the dealer.

    Mickey do you think this is the only place you have posted comments? Yes you have called a couple people “BOY”. We understand your ignorance, its ok.

  127. Reid says:

    Gentlemen,
    With the video’s of ignorant bumper pulls, ignorant commercials and Toyota’s ploy’s in marketing, Im proud to say i’m not a Toyota owner will never be again. The rants, raves and actions of the current owner’s who act like they designed and built the truck themselves is not a good veiw for the cause that is being persued. You are wanting to notify the public of the truck and for owners to share stories and experencies to persude the public to buy the vehicle right? In order to complete this the facts need to be straight with no bias due to the fact that when your creditability is jeoperdized the converstaion becomes useless. I tried the Tundra and it was not the quailty I was expecting being a true Dodge guy at heart. Yes I did trade my Tundra for a Ford but I will always favor a Dodge.
    ++
    Basicly what im saying is that the facts stated below from the inital article need to be correct. “The last time we compared the Tundra and F150, the Tundra was safer and more powerful than the F150. The Tundra had more standard safety equipment, a better tow rating, more horsepower, bigger brakes, and better overall performance. While Ford will finally be adding standard Roll Stability Control, there

  128. Justin says:

    CB: If I remember correctly, the 5.4L in the F150 begain with roughly 235hp/330lb-ft, bumped to 265hp/350lb-ft in ’99 then bumped to 300hp/365lb-ft in ’04. Now for ’09, from the most reputable source I know, it’s rated at 320hp/390lb-ft. So roughly 80hp over a 12-13yr period (96-09), but a lot of advancement has been made over this time. So yes it’s decent, but Ford does need to provide a little more, whether a new motor is needed or not, they do need some more power, and I’m a Ford guy. I’ll like to see how the new 6spd puts down the power though instead of the old 4spd they’ve always had.
    *****
    True lb-ft is what it’s about in these trucks. Ford isn’t far off the mark, but they still need to improve or they’ll be left behind.
    *****
    The F150 in my eyes will always be Fords bread and butter. Fuel prices are hurting, but Ford still makes a damn good truck. Problem is, the other makes also make a damn good truck as well. Not much difference between these trucks anymore.
    *****
    What do you consider strong?
    *****
    I’d agree with your ASE mechanic, then again I’m biased. Each truck has it’s own goods/bads. But if you take care of any make/model, they’ll all last you quite a while.
    *****
    Reid: I apologize, don’t have time to respond to your posts just yet, but hopefully I can either later today or on Sunday.

  129. Justin says:

    Reid: I am aware that it’s the lb-ft that is most important in getting a mass moving. But HP isn’t just for top end. I always think of it this way. LB-FT of Torque says how much work you can do with the motor. HP is how fast your motor can do it. So two trucks with exactly the same lb-ft, can basically do the same job, but the one with more hp can do it faster. And the TC is part of the transmission, but this is being resolved and doesn’t effect all models. The arguement for the F250 5.4L over the Tundra 5.7L and how much they can tow is due to 1) the weight of the 250 vs the Tundra and 2) The heavy duty frame & suspension (which adds to the weight). Otherwise if you dropped a Tundra 5.7L in the 250, bet you could tow more than the 5.4L could in the 250.
    *****
    The 3 section, basically bolted together frame of the Tundra can provide for a smoother ride, but from my experience, won’t provide much if any added assistance in the towing dept. I could not say why, without looking over the truck, the amount of weight it was carrying, and how it was carrying the load to determine what some contributing factors might be. You may be correct that the frame is partly to blame, can’t say for sure though.
    *****
    Towing so close to the manufacturers limit is very unwise if you’ve ever done serious hauling. Sure the manufacturer sets a limit the truck can tow, but the closer you get to max the less overall stability and control you have. It’s called physics and every 100lbs more decreases the trucks ability. Also the higher the weight amount hauled, the more you decrease the longevity of the truck. The more stress you put on components only decreases their life. Why do you think oil, diff and tranny changes, for a few items, are recommened more frequently when you tow? Now your friend is breaking the warranty agreement and if Ford was to find out he was towing these amounts above the recommended limit, they’d cancel his warranty. Read the owners manual, heck check this site out, it’ll give you that info on an ’04 F250. This statement right here “misuse of the vehicle, such a driving over curbs, overloading, racing or using the vehicle as a stationary power source” voids his warranty all dealing with “overloading”. (Page 11)
    http://www.motorcraftservice.c.....rdwa5e.pdf
    Plus, he may just be breaking the law. Even though the manufacturer sets a limit for the truck, so does each state, which not all states have the same limits. May check each states guidelines that you travel thru.
    *****
    I have towed, thru the Rocky Mountains of Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, with and without a trailer brake, sorry to tell you. I agree trailer brakes help significantly in reducing the forces that the trailer demands of the truck, but come on up to 5K-11K ft up and down passes and you’ll notice a significant difference than when you tow on flat land or small hills. These effects are that much more noticeable when carrying a 9K lbs load in a 1/2 ton than if you were hauling the same 9K lbs in a 3/4 or 1 ton. Again the trailer brakes helps, but conrtolling the a high weight load in a 1/2 ton vs a 3/4 ton is a lot different. Why do you think most people that haul on a normal basis don’t opt for a 1/2 ton?

  130. Justin says:

    Reid: Bumper pulls don’t tell what is the better truck. Biggest factors are traction, bumper heigth, weight and driver from my experience. They’re nice to watch but don’t prove much. Commericals are to attract the misinformed or uninformed customers many times. All makes have their ply in marketing, it’s not just Toyota. You have cheerleaders for every make/model vehicle. Not every can’t view things with an unbiased opinion. People posting their experience is just that, their experience, including likes and dislikes. Yours may differ. That’s why I tell everyone to shop around and try every comparable vehicle to find what best fits your needs. Everyone is bias in one form or another, so no matter who rights a mag article or drives a certain vehicle, they are going to have at least a little bias for or against a certain product. See you tried the Tundra and it wasn’t for you, your experience and preference. You also prefer Dodge, this is showing bias, but you are unbiased enough to go with what you think is the best truck. Other people may have a different opinion. To each their own. Why would we want everyone to be the same and like/want the same items? If this were the way it was, you wouldn’t have all the choices in makes/models on the road and no manufacturer would have incentive to improve their product.
    *****
    Being this is a Tundra site, you’ve got to understand they will sway towards the Tundra. Not all items stated are fact, some are opinion, but also many of these statements are true. Does this mean they’re right/wrong? Neither, just means based on their review, these are some of the reasons why they favor the Tundra.
    *****
    Yes the you can get a 5.4L with an S/C. When buying my 150, the parts dept tried selling me one, but opted not to. But also remember, you can also S/C a Tundra. So then we’re back at square one. Also, very few model 150’s come standard with an S/C.
    *****
    I agree and disagree on the safety issue. Yes the 150 had a better frontal crash rating, but Tundra had a better rear crash test rating. Also, the Tundra has more safety features, which can decrease the chance of injury in an accident. Ford is correcting this in the ’09 models.
    *****
    True the 150 has a higher tow/payload in limited models. You can always upgrade to a 3/4 or 1 ton if need be. Many people don’t want a 3/4 or 1 ton, since they don’t haul often enough to require the larger truck. But model for model in the 1/2, the Tundra has a higher tow rating while the 150 has a higher payload. Personally from my experience with 1/2 tons, it’s a none issue since not many tow near or over 9K lbs.
    *****
    Roll Stability Control is another safety feature that will help increase sales and keep up with the competition. Sure not everyone needs or wants it, but if you fail to offer certain items, this gives the other makes/model an advantage to certain demographics. In the end to Ford, it’s all about sales and keeping an even playing field with the competition.
    *****
    Optional trailer braking control is a nice feature to offer to the towing crowd. Just like RSC is good for the types that want it. Again, to each their own.
    *****
    F150 doesn’t come stock other than limited edition models (Rousch, Foose, some Harley) with a S/C, maybe installed by the dealer. The Limited & FX2 do not come from the factory with an S/C. This is installed by the dealer. The Lincoln MKT is dead for ’09 being replaced by the F150 Platinum. Ford offers two SB, 5.5ft and 6.5ft, both are considered style side. While the LB (8ft) is only style side and the step/flare side is only 6.5ft. Did you forget ford will offer 5 different frames in ’09, 126″, 133″, 145″, 157″ and 163″? I think everyone knows the F150 comes in many more flavors and colors than the Tundra. Don’t think that was ever a concern here until you brought it up. Why all the talk about the S/C? Are you that worried about the hp/lb-ft output of the F150?
    *****
    Actually what I said, no 1/2 ton should be towing over 10K lbs, not just the Toyota. I think the ’09 F150 ratings of over 11Klbs is for bragging and wouldn’t suggest trying it.
    *****
    Depends on what/how you like your performance. Large motor to large motor without S/C, the 5.7L out performs the 5.4L by the numbers and this is what many people are concerned about anymore.
    *****
    Thanks for the post.

  131. Reid – In spite of your tendency to speak down to everyone, I have to say that I think you’ve got some good points. You’ll note that this was a “preliminary” comparison, based on what little info was available at the time. This isn’t the final word for sure. When Ford officially releases the new F150, we’ll do a comparison. AS for your comments about you and your friends towing weight grossly in excess of the GVWR, you all need to stop and think. While it’s true that most vehicles can handle much more than they are rated for, the manufacturer’s rating is determined to be the maximum safe load. Your argument about the trailer brake misses the point entirely – as you know, towing is about more than stopping and going. There’s stability, turning, and the interplay between the vehicle’s suspension and the road to consider. Ford’s new RSC system is exciting because it offers the ability to counter the effects of a swaying trailer, and we are excited that a manufacturer is debuting this system. Still, no electronic feature is going to compensate for physics. Towing more than the manufacturer’s suggested weight is reckless as determined by a bunch of truck engineers that are much smarter than either one of us. At a minimum, think of it this way: If you get in an accident while towing more than the vehicle’s GVWR, you become personally liable for any damages. The fine print in your auto insurance policy states quite clearly that you’re not covered while pulling more than the recommended load. You could loose your vehicles, your house, even your retirement funds. To me, it sounds like you needed a bigger truck anyways, so I have a hard time taking your comments about the Tundra too seriously.

  132. Mickey says:

    Reid who really is the ignorant one? Let’s see what we put out. Loss 16k and blames Toyota. I don’t think Toyota signed their name on that contract. Of course you financed the big loss also. Well hopefully you realized what you financed that 2% goes to the dealer because you’re a high risk even with outstanding credit. Your loss being incorporated in your new truck’s financing will make you feel good. At least one thing Reid I haul only a 18.5 ft boat with my truck which by no means is near the limit or needs brake assistance. Unlike you towing over the limit not only makes you ignorant but very dangerous on the road. You can sit here all day and compare trucks your 3/4 to an Tundra all you want. Like you said when someone makes a bad claim or statement makes their whole issue no good. Well how’s the feeling? Your complete bias against tundra shows making your arguement moot. Go ahead and call me more names if that makes you feel better about how much that ford cost you.

  133. Lisa says:

    ADMIN, what is going on with the comment Mickey listed above. You say Reid – In spite of your tendency to speak down to everyone but nothing to the nonsense mickey writes.
    //
    It is obvious that Mickey has a chip on his shoulder due to the fact that I can not even understand what Mr. Mouse is writing. No where did “Reid” state he
    was exceeding Tundra Max Capacity for towing. As for the comment of 2% and dearler financing what is that spose to mean? Maybe the guy paid cash. Whats it to you? You do NOT have trailer brakes on a 18.5ft boat but you want to poke fun at other people and call them ignorant. That is stupid, who buys a any boat over 16 ft with no trailer brakes. I have a Q5 that came standard with trailer brakes, even the Q4 came with standard trailer brakes.
    \\
    The point I assume Reid was trying to make was the only difference in a 3/4 and 1ton is the suspension with the F series. The frame, eng, transmission, brakes and axles are all the same. A F-550 has the same powerstroke and Torque shift Transmission.

  134. Lisa – Please see Reid’s comments from the 29th about towing. He intimates that towing more than the manufacturer’s limit is just a warranty issue – that’s the irresponsible comment I took issue with. I’m going to guess that was Mickey’s beef too.

  135. Mickey says:

    Admin you got it. Good thing DOT is on the road looking for those type of things. Lisa read up about financing and tricks dealers do to help give it to you. If you read he loss 16k on a 40k truck. An F250 isn’t cheap and very few have the cash to pay it off along with payoff of the Tundra. Which he says 16k. That will roll over into a new truck financing. Now you need to learn about financing. I would explain it but you need to learn it. Apparently you didn’t read above August 29th. Then you see where I’m coming from. Maybe you should heed some of your own advice “What’s it to you?

  136. Anonymous says:

    Gentlemen,
    Never did I say I ever exceeded the GCVW of my Tundra. The argument was why put a rating of 10,500lbs if people certain people on here says dont exceed 9,000lbs. Are they a engineer, do they understand the physics?? Hell I dont understand anything but dont exceed this weight so heres what I do.
    1. When I buy a new equipment I top off the gas and put it on the scales at the local truck stop giving me the true weight. Costs about $8.00.
    2. When Im towing run the trailer across the same scales with the truck and check the weight again to ensure you are not over weight. This also gives you a ticket that show DOT that at this date and time you weighed you equipment. If the guy is a real a** he will re-weigh you. So bring the DOT

    As for my friend he has exceeded the GCVW but has also made alot of Modifications to the equipment like airbag susp. and 1 ton springs that is inspect one a year by the state and found to be incompliance.

    Now that the subject is on safety and DOT what about trailer brakes Mickey on a 18 ft boat trailer?
    Well here is the Law for Florida 48’Length, 8′ 6″ Width, 13′ 6″ Height, 60′ Combined length and any trailer 3000lbs and above require trailer brakes hydralic or electric. So how much does a 18ft boat and trailer weigh, it’s over 3,000 lbs. So your comment was right “Good thing DOT is on the road looking for those type of things”, “At least one thing Reid I haul only a 18.5 ft boat with my truck which by no means is near the limit or needs brake assistance”. You may want to rethink those comments, Right.

    Now for the whole safety aspects everyone was concerned about. What about lifting a truck. The Airbags, ABS, general dynamics are effected. As for payload how many trucks do you see with 4 people in it going on vaction. Wells 4 people we will say 200 lbs each= 800lbs, 6 suitcases 55 lbs each= 330lbs, Large cooler full of soda’s= we will say 50 lbs, 4 golf bags at 40 lbs each= 160lbs. That equals 1340lbs, max payload (payload includes people) of a Tundra is what 1500 lbs. So you are under max payload by 160lbs but what was added to the vehicle as a aftermarket. Heres some examples Brushbars, tonnuea covers, bug deflectors, step bars, trailer hitchs, wheels and tires and little things like CD’s and such. That 160lbs disappears fast if you start adding aftermarket accessories. Somthing to think about.

    About the financing 2%, I have never heard of it. Heres my way of buying equipment.
    1. Go to the bank and get preapproved for a certain amount, they will also give you a blank check.
    2. Go find the equipment. Skip the salemen and go straight to the manager. Ask to see the invoice, they do not have to do this unless its certain circumstances then they have to show the invoice. The invoice will show what the dealership paid and other information.
    3. Take it or leave it. I have bought 14 vehicles and lost money on 3. This is by far the most I have ever lost.
    There is a couple ways to buy at discounted prices SAMS club is one. The 2% thing I have never heard of, if your credit is average or below average I can understand due to the risk. I will lucky to keep the truck more than 2 years before I trade it unless its the one.
    Well gentlemen good day!

  137. Lisa says:

    [From Admin: Word for word re-post of Reid's previous comment from "Lisa"]

  138. Anonymous says:

    So ADMIN why will you not post the facts, do not like being wrong? What is it?
    I know your bias!

    [From Admin: Re-post of previous comment follows and has been deleted to keep from being repetitive.]

  139. Anonymous says:

    Mickey, Now that the subject is on safety and DOT what about trailer brakes Mickey on a 18 ft boat trailer?
    Well here is the Law for Florida 48’Length, 8′ 6″ Width, 13′ 6″ Height, 60′ Combined length and any trailer 3000lbs and above require trailer brakes hydralic or electric. So how much does a 18ft boat and trailer weigh, it’s over 3,000 lbs. So your comment was right “Good thing DOT is on the road looking for those type of things”, “At least one thing Reid I haul only a 18.5 ft boat with my truck which by no means is near the limit or needs brake assistance”. You may want to rethink those comments, Right.

  140. reid says:

    The above comment is also from myself. Never did I say I ever exceeded the GCVW of my Tundra. The argument was why put a rating of 10,500lbs if people certain people on here says dont exceed 9,000lbs. Are they a engineer, do they understand the physics?? Hell I dont understand anything but dont exceed this weight so heres what I do.
    1. When I buy a new equipment I top off the gas and put it on the scales at the local truck stop giving me the true weight. Costs about $8.00.
    2. When Im towing run the trailer across the same scales with the truck and check the weight again to ensure you are not over weight. This also gives you a ticket that show DOT that at this date and time you weighed you equipment. If the guy is a real a** he will re-weigh you. So bring the DOT

  141. Anonymous says:

    Now for the whole safety aspects everyone was concerned about. What about lifting a truck. The Airbags, ABS, general dynamics are effected. As for payload how many trucks do you see with 4 people in it going on vaction. Wells 4 people we will say 200 lbs each= 800lbs, 6 suitcases 55 lbs each= 330lbs, Large cooler full of soda’s= we will say 50 lbs, 4 golf bags at 40 lbs each= 160lbs. That equals 1340lbs, max payload (payload includes people) of a Tundra is what 1500 lbs. So you are under max payload by 160lbs but what was added to the vehicle as a aftermarket. Heres some examples Brushbars, tonnuea covers, bug deflectors, step bars, trailer hitchs, wheels and tires and little things like CD’s and such. That 160lbs disappears fast if you start adding aftermarket accessories. Somthing to think about.

    About the financing 2%, I have never heard of it in the 14 vehicles I have bought. Sorry if you have to pay sticker price and have to finance at the dealer, thats a ignorant mistake. There are ways to receive some really great deals. For one you need great credit sounds like this leaves you out, 2% finance charge sounds like your a credit risk.

    Are we going to leave these subjects along now???

  142. reid says:

    Admin: Justin and Mickey are truely showing that you have no creditably in most of these subjects.
    The following is in reference on the Bumper Corrosion issues.
    Justin: The Tundra has its issues, like the waxing of the chrome bumpers.
    Mickey: Also waxing your bumper puts a coat on it, just like your paint to protect it. That has nothing to do with quality. It

  143. reid says:

    Here you go,
    State By State Braking Laws
    From the Digest of Motor Laws / AAA / Edition 73

    Colorado 800-999-4997 Required over 3000 lbs. GVW
    Florida 850-414-4100 Required over 3000 lbs. GVW, On all wheels.
    Idaho 208-334-8000 Trailers with a unladen weight of 1500 lbs. Must have independent braking system
    Illinois 217-782-7820 Required over 3000 lbs. GVW
    Indiana 317-232-5533 Required over 3000 lbs. GVW

  144. Mickey says:

    Reid I’m glad you know how to use the internet. My boat and trailer weight combine is 2450lbs, which is way under weight limit.. Now that you are uninformed about financing isn’t my problem. First of all I used my credit uion which gave me a pre-approved loan for the truck which the % was lower than my aunt who is the finance person at a bank. She was the one who taught me about loans. when a person comes in with out finance pre-approved loan the dealer will try to finance it for you. Being the fact you stated you loss 16k and your truck wasn’t worth alot then puts you under. If you’re under and the loan is more than 110% then the dealer will work with that special bank they have let’s say the going rate is 6% and they will swing a deal for you for the whole amount for 8% which gives the dealer the 2% to cover you. Ried I don’t have the issue you talk about as far as financing. Good try….Putting on a coat of wax/chrome polish on your bumper is the same as putting this wax on chrome rims. Protection as you call it just as well as preventive maintenance. You’re going to tell me that you don’t put a wax/polish on your chrome rims if you had them? Same difference. But I know you are talking about the back of the bumper. Why is it that Toyota didn’t replace yours like they did on others? You will find what ever you can wrong about a Tundra that’s just you but I hope you don’t have the problems with your Ford F-250. By the way they’re 5 recalls and 3 TSB’s on your new truck. I’ll pray that you don’t have a front end crash with that truck if they didn’t fix the driver’s airbag yet.

  145. Mickey says:

    Also Reid, Justin has input alot on this site. Even though he likes Ford he’s also unbias about all categories about both trucks.

  146. Justin says:

    Admin: Good post from the 30th!
    *****
    Dang, a lot of bickering going on here. I’d hate to contirbute, but feel obligated to respond on a couple issues. Not saying I’m right or wrong in many of my posts, just stressing my experience and opinion.
    *****
    Reid: I don’t think anyone down played the rusting chrome issue and are aware there’s a problem. Toyota is trying to resolve this issue by replacing the rusting components. This may be a lack of R&D as well as quality on the Tundra, but does not provide significant proof that the Tundra is a poorly built truck overall. Every make/model has its flaws. So I agree there is an issue if a brand new truck is showing rust, but applaud Toyota for taking actions instead of leaving it up to the consumer to resolve.
    *****
    You state you have never exceeded the GCVW, I don’t think anyone claimed that you did, or at least I haven’t. But in your post on 8/29 you stated the following: “Case in point a friend tows 22,000lb trailer with a 04 F-250, this is about 6,000 lbs over its manufacture rating”, which I was referring to. You’ll notice in my comment that you quoted, I was speaking of your friend and not you personally. Don’t take it so personal. I’m just providing feedback on what you posted, not some assumption that I made.
    *****
    I can not speak for others in their towing experience, but regarding the laws and research of when a trailer brake is/isn’t needed, this isn’t a concern to me. I follow the guidelines of any state I travel through, which is mostly the 4 corner states and I’ve become somewhat familiar with their laws. Also, I follow my owners manual to a T on GCVW. If I exceed or even come close to my 150’s max, I will borrow my friends 2500 Silvy DMax or uncles 250 PSD, which is a very rare occurance. I see plenty of people during my trips exceeding the max, or at least what looks to exceed the max. Personally, it looks like an endeavor I would not want to experience. So just like you don’t want to be quoted as towing over GCVW, please don’t include others in your posts stating we all need to do research, we’re ignorant and these are our problems. Here’s your exact statement so you don’t think I’m misquoting you: “Here is the law, ignorance will not save you in court. But that is you alls true problem. Stop being stupid and do you research.”
    *****
    I hope we can get this thread back on topic rather than the continued downward spiral it is taking. Instead of talking about the Tundra/F150, we’re all getting off topic. Also, the personal attacks need to end, can’t people today have a friendly debate and conversate logically without the name calling and statements like “ignorance”, “What’s it with you” and the like. This leads to the distruction of some very good sites and drives some potentially good people away. Thanks to all though for you thoughts and experience, everyone has some good points!

  147. Justin says:

    Mickey & Reid: Enough about the finance issues. All you guys are doing is bragging about your own experience. Neither of you are right or wrong, it’s just not worth bickering over who got the better deal or worked the system better. Was approved for $50K @ 0% by FMCC way before buying my truck or even thinking of getting a new truck. But you know what, who cares, this has nothing to do with the Tundra/F150.
    *****
    Regarding the 250 recalls. The airbag only impacts those built from 10/01/2007 thru 10/22/2007. Very small %, but hopefully the dealer would have corrected this prior to sell. Here are the ’08 250s recalls.

    http://www.ford-trucks.com/rec.....08/d-F-250

  148. Reid – First, I’m sorry to disappoint you but your long comment (which was submitted twice and then submitted by “Lisa”) was not intentionally blocked. Any long comments are automatically held for moderation by the site’s software (FYI, spammers favor really long comments sprinkled with links). I did leave your comments about my bias however. I think everyone should know.
    Anyways…
    On the 29th, you said this about a trucks’ tow rating “This is the rating that the manufacture says that the equipment will handle for the longevity of the vehicle with out substaining any damage to the vehicle.” This is incorrect, hence my discussion of safety.
    I’m not sure what your point is here. You keep bringing up rust, which is something no one here has argued with you. (FYI – You keep quoting me personally – I’m Jason Lancaster. Stop telling me I’m ignorant and then using my own comments against me, it makes you look stupid.)
    You are angry about the huge drop in resale value on your Tundra, but I fail to see how that’s a reflection on Toyota. The market for trucks right now is in the toilet – new Dodges are being sold for half of sticker. What do you think a used truck *should* be worth in this market?! It’s a ridiculous assertion that Toyota somehow let you down. Drive by any new truck dealer in town and you’ll see a lot full of trucks and HUGE discounts. That ALWAYS makes used car values drop. I’m going to guess that you didn’t pay anywhere near invoice for that new 250 of yours. Maybe $5-$6k less? Maybe more? What do you think used F250’s are worth if you can get a new one so cheap?
    Finally, your points about payload and towing ratings are correct and should be read by anyone who owns a truck. As I’ve said before, you’ve made some good points, but I don’t understand why you’ve got such a problem with the Tundra. It sounds like you needed a bigger truck so you went and bought one – good for you.

  149. Justin says:

    Mickey: Thanks for the comments. We may not always agree on a particular topic, but this is what makes for a good debate and review. Personally, I try to go into every situation open minded and as unbiased as possible. I have no problem admitting my trucks or any trucks faults, or praising a truck for it’s glory. Competition breeds competition, so the better Toyota makes the Tundra, hopefully Ford will simply respond with a better truck.

  150. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): How about starting a new Tundra review on the ’09 Ram? A lot of info out there, like the ’09 F150. I know we won’t have a complete hands on comparison until they are released, but just something to think about.

  151. reid says:

    Gents,
    Lisa is my wife, its like walking into the lions den here. Gloves up! Yall can make anyone feel like fight or flight. The true thing that upset me the most was the resale value of my truck. Toyota is known for keeping the highest value. Dodge make a nice truck but I think they are cheap on the interior the seats are like sitting on plywood. They make a strong engine and after they fixed the transmission and axles its a truck to be reconed with. The Tundra has many feature that I miss. Take for instance the front sensors, ac fan than is stronger than most home ac unit blowers and sliding arm rest. Yes there are things that I miss but one reason I bought a Tundra was the resale value, which I didnt see. It is not Toyota fault but the economy. The corrosion issue was the last straw I did not feel like fighting with a dealer who couldnt fix my stereo. I felt it was time to move on and didnt want to see what was behind the next corner. I understand this but you have to understand the fustration taking a hit like that. Does anyone feel like this is a repeat of the 70’s gas crunch that killed the muscle cars. Their is a horsepower battle going on right now with every manufacture and gas just keeps going up, whats the odds to public will cause this to end by boycotting gas guzzlers for gas savers?? Whats your thoughts?

    As for the financing who really cares to each their own

    Ford offered the most powerful gas in the class and I have to admit it has grown on me. Although Ford dealers leave alot to desired, can not even trust them to change the oil and do the lubes. I think im better off with walmart.

    Has anyone really found out anything about the frame situation on the Tundra is it a Unibody or what. What do they call it. What are the expectations of durability, if it works as advertised they may have made a first in the industry. Heres one option I wish someone would offer is a 110v outlet in the truck bed, I have heard that Nissian Titan, Honda, Tacoma and Ford Explorer Sport offer it but it would be nice in all models. One strong enough to power about 1200w.

  152. Justin says:

    Reid: Thanks for informing us on who Lisa is. Glad to see you have a logical wife that is willing to stand behind you and knows her stuff.
    *****
    I do apologize if you feel this site is not condusive to people with differing opinions, I know I felt this way initially being a Ford fan. Just a couple things to remember. If you post anything, post that it’s either your opinion or if it’s fact, include some sort of source (link) for your stance. Many of my posts include links to back my resources. Sometimes this isn’t always possible, but in those cases provide as much detail as possible up front. Many times in forums people will say something, then in a post many days later they’ll add on additional detail to further their point, whether true or not, after being called out. I know Admin (Jason) is always looking for good and objective posts, otherwise I wouldn’t have been posting here so long. So personally, I appreciate your posts and perspective, we can all learn from one another and our expectations of a particular vehicle. Just please refrain from any name calling, cut downs or abusive type of posts, this detracts from the site and your post since it adds nothing but takes away from the point you are stressing. We’ve all done it, but I’ve learned if we can’t agree on a particular issue, simply agree to disagree. That’s better than going on post after post bickering over the small details. Lastly, think about how you word items. If it’s in an attacking manner towards the Tundra, keep in mind this is a Tundra site, you’ll get a response that attacks back from the loyal followers. Mickey and I had a few of these, but we’ve since squashed our beef and try to conversate logically. Heck, if I remember correctly, he’s a former multiple Ford vehicle owner that was burned so many times, he jumped ship. So he has plenty of experience with Ford and how his Fords dissappointed him.
    *****
    On to bigger and brighter subjects now. Resale of all trucks/suvs have taken a huge hit since the fuel price gouging started, which doesn’t just impact the Tundra. Nobody wants them anymore, they want the compact cars that get great mpgs. Due to the demand and cost of fuel, dealers are less willing to take these vehicles in, since they’ll sit on the lots much longer than they used to and they’ll take up lot space that could be dedicated to the quick selling compacts. While the trucks/suv resale has declined, the compact car resale values have risen. Crazy that a used car that was selling for $5-$7K last year is now fetching upwards of $10K.
    *****
    Like you, the Ram style and powerplants (HEMI & Cummins) are great trucks, but the fit/finish and material quality is extremely lacking. Hopefully this will change with the ’09s.
    *****
    Did you try to touch base with a different Toyota dealer on replacing the corroding bumpers & radio? Seems like easy enough fixes and the dealer shouldn’t have a problem replacing them since Toyota is aware of the problems.
    *****
    We are already feeling the 70’s type gas crunch, just not as bad just yet. Just look at the resale of you Tundra and what the compacts are fetching and you’ll see many people have already started boycotting gas guzzlers. Those soccer moms who needed (well they only truly wanted it) the huge SUV or lifted 3/4 ton truck to have the biggest and baddest on the block are dwindling. Either switching back to compacts/mid-size cars or to the latest craze, the CUV. The HP war is still on, just look at how GM dropped the 6.0L in the 1/2 ton Silvy/Sierra recently (and soon to be 6.2L LS) and now Dodge ups the output of the 5.7L HEMI to 390hp/407lb-ft. All this while from what we know as of right now, Ford is only upping the 5.4L to 320hp/390lb-ft and have killed their plans of dropping their 6.2L (Hurrican/Boss) motor in the 150 and will only drop it in the 250/350 models, basically fazing out the 6.8L V10 which is sad. We may see the 6.2L in the 150 on a limited basis, but not as the default large motor as it was expected to be. If you’ve read up on Ford recently, they are downsizing many of their engines and going the EB (EcoBoost) route, which is basically a turbo setup on 4 cylinder and twin turbo setup on 6 cylinder and larger motors. So they get better mpgs, but can still produce the power of a larger motor if needed. Ford is even developing a mod 5.0L and 5.0L EB motor for the ’10 Mustang and ’10 F150, which is supposed to put down more power than the upcoming 5.4L and get better mpgs. Which if Ford is releasing a new Mustang in 2010, there is still that niche market that wants the muscle/pony cars. Of course with the recent release of the new Challenger and upcoming debut of the ’09 Camaro, if Ford wants to keep on top of that market they do need the update.
    *****
    On financing, I’m right there with you. Who cares. Some have good/bad credit. Some get better deals than others, but oh well. As long as the person is happy with their decision and deal, that’s all that matters.
    *****
    The 6.8L is a very reliable motor and has some huge lb-ft numbers. Put a CAI, Exhaust, E-fans and a tuner on it alone and you’ll be pleasently surprised. What gears did you get in the 250 (4.30)? Is it the TorqueShift or 6-spd man. trans? I agree I’ve been dissappointed with many a Ford dealeship service in the past. The dealership I go to now, is actually really good and top notch in how they treat their customers. We’ll see if this continues, but they are a lot better than the last 2 Ford dealers and the last Nissan dealership I dealt with.
    *****
    Don’t have all the details on the Tundra frame. Just know it’s three seperate C-channel portions (maybe the front most portion is fully boxed) that have basically been bolted together. Someone else may have to post on more detailed info. But I believe it’s the first ever in a full-size truck, we’ll just have to see how the durability and longevity is effected since this is only about 2 years old.
    ****
    Reid, I really want to thank you for getting bad on topic and providing a great post here. Can’t wait to hear a little more of your feedback on the 250 after you have a few more thousand miles on her.

  153. Justin – Good idea. I’ll work on it.

    Reid – Good post. I’m sorry if this place isn’t as welcoming as it should be. Resale values have dropped through the floor on all these trucks, but I agree that Toyota makes a big point of bragging about resale. It was annoying last year when they threw $3k on the hood (and began tubing the used Tundra market in the process), but the sad truth is every used truck is worth much less than it should be. Everyone is losing right now – at least you got a screaming good deal on the F250. I remember a day when we sold those for sticker…long time ago.

    I think you’re right about the pendulum swinging back towards the fuel economy craze (just like in the energy crisis).

    That V10 is a torque monster. Cool motor – and with the recent engine upgrades (VVT if I remember correctly) feeding it isn’t near as expensive as it used to be.

    The Tundra frame is a point of contention for us here at Tundra Headquarters. In each of our full comparisons, we’ve decided the Tundra’s frame isn’t as good. At the time, we didn’t have any proof. Now, in light of the bed bounce issue, it seems like we made the right call. It’s not technically a unibody frame (unibody includes frame in the body, which the Tundra doesn’t have), but it’s designed like one for sure. Why Toyota chose to build a full-size truck without a fully-boxed frame is a real mystery to me. Considering how much nicer the F150 was after Ford made that change, I can’t imagine why Toyota didn’t copy it. If only Ichiro Toyota would call us next time before building a truck…

    I hope you and Lisa keep posting here – it’s always fun to get a conflicting point of view. Keeps us honest! :-)

  154. Mickey says:

    Reid in 2006 I went to the Pepsi 400 in Daytona> Chevy had all vehicles there and they had what they called a Silverado Hybrid. I thought well great gas mileage. Nope no where near that. It was built for the contractor with 2 electrical plugs in the back of the bed near the tailgate to run air compressors and electrical items contractors used. That might be what you’re looking for. You can try looking it up. Yes Justin was right I had 3 fords in my time. 97 Thunderbird, 03 Crown Victoria LX Sport, 03 F-150. I still wanted to keep the crown Vic even with the 18 visits to the shop. To me it was the best ride and the major reason REAR wheel drive. The 97 well over 2 dozen trips and it got expensive. The F-150 apparently I had a rare breed. As it was told to me I had one of three sequential numbered trucks that had this computer problem. Two on the west coast and you got it I had the child of the east coast. I had the computer replaced or fixed 10x before they finally got it right. Well like you got very disgusted and traded the truck for an 06 Silverado LT3. The Chevy ended up worse than the Ford. Like you I couldn’t trust the dealership.

  155. reid says:

    Their is a generator that is ran from the pulleys that you can buy. Just like a oversized alternator, but then you have the warrenty issues. I have a 100k warrenty and would like to keep it. As for the gas milage im getting 10 mpg in the city and 16 on the interstate. No really that bad for such a large engine. Really doesnt matter what truck you buy a couple more MPG really doesn’t matter. I have to watch the wife she likes to get in the pedal, some time I wonder if she even uses the mirrors. I have to limit her. It seems no matter how I drive it I get the same MPG. I have 4.10 gears with the Torqueshift, its a pretty amazing transmission. Put it to the floor and you dont relize how fast your really going. You don’t feel it shift, its all smooth.

  156. Mickey says:

    Pretty good mpg’s on the highway. Very good warranty. Fortunately I went with the lifetime warranty but you pay for it with dealership maintenance. The wife tried the truck once and spun the tires and she stopped right away shaken from it and stated never again. I just smiled and said any way you want it. The secret dear it’s not your Prius. The truck goes when you put the hammer down.

  157. Justin says:

    Reid: From the experience I’ve received from fellow 6.8L owners, 10/16 mpgs is about average. Some slightly better, some slightly worse. All depends on the environment you drive in and how hard/soft you are on the skinny pedal. The 4.10s should get the truck moving well and the Torqushift is an amazing trans. Like you stated, it’ll move fairly easy if you get into it. Like you, I have to limit the wife on her use of my 150. She tries to drive it like her Altima and brings back 10-12mpgs city on 87 octane and 8-11mpgs city when running E85, while I average 13-15mpgs city on 87 and 10-13mpgs on E85.
    *****
    Mickey: As mentioned above, I have to watch the wife in the truck. Even though the 150 has much less hp/lb-ft than your Tundra, the wife always seems to light up the tires when driving. This may be the reason she gets such poor mpgs in it. Of course she rarely drives it as she states it’s too big and she can’t manuever it in traffic like the Altima, and I’m like well duh!

  158. Justin says:

    Just trying to keep everyone up to speed on the ’09 F150. Attached is a link to another source for power and mpg data on the powertrain. Of course for the ’09 models, if it hasn’t b een stated here before, the F150 will be an all V8 lineup.

    http://www.blueovalforums.com/.....opic=26811

  159. Justin – The 5.4 seems very comparable to the Tundra in terms of fuel economy, which is too bad because the 5.7 is going to have a lot more power I think. However, the 4.6L 3V seems like a good competitor for Chevy’s 5.3.

  160. Justin says:

    Admin: Yeah, I’m a little disappointed with the 5.4L figures. But we’ll see how it truly performs with the new 6spd and the new ETC (elec. throttle control). We all know the F150 is currently plagued by the old ETC design and 4spd auto. Can’t see it producing the 0-60 times of the Tundra, but it’ll be a little more respectable.
    *****
    Sad to see Ford cancel the 6.2L in the 150 (unless it’s offered in a limited edition model), but at least it’ll make it to the Super Duties. Rumor (I know) has it Ford is producing a 5.0L based off the 4.6L that should debut in either the ’10 or ’11 MY 150. This 5.0L will also go into the redesigned/refreshed Mustang (’10 MY). They will offer a N/A and EcoBoost edition of this motor. All speculation of course, but this 5.0L is stated to get better mpgs (who knows by how much) and produce better hp/lb-ft numbers than the ’09 5.4L 320hp/390lb-ft and 14/18mpgs.
    *****
    The 4.6L 3V has basically been pulled from the Mustang, Explorer and Sport Trac. So it’s gotten some decent service and reviews and is almost up to par with the 5.3L in regards to power and mpgs.

  161. Justin – I’ve read the rumors about the new 5.0 too – sounds awesome in the Mustang. Didn’t know that it was bound for the 150, but that would make sense. I’m sure it will be powerful enough. The F150 will probably drive out just fine (the current one is just fine in my opinion), but it probably won’t be beating the Tundra’s engine in our next comparison! :-) I’ll be surprised if we ever see that 6.2L. It’s not that it’s a bad motor, but anything that size in this fuel climate seems like a bad seller.

  162. Justin says:

    Admin: Rumor has it that the 5.0L was originally going to replace the 4.6L across the board, with it being the small V8 in the 150 when the 6.2L was released. Now that the 6.2L and 150 aren’t coming together, it sounds like the 5.0L will eventually replace the 5.4L as the large displacement motor in the 150 (other than the upcoming 4.4L diesel). There will be the N/A version, which has been guesstimated to produce roughly 350hp/380-390lb-ft and an EcoBoost version (twin-turbo) no guesstimated specs I’ve seen, for the 150. While the 5.0L that gets dropped into the Stang is rumored to be around 380hp/360lb-ft.
    *****
    Even with the improvements in the 5.4L, I don’t know if it’ll compare to the Tundra 5.7L. It’s a nice small improvement, but motor to motor, still not in the same class just yet. The interesting thing is with 3.73 & 6spd trans, the 150 will have a better gearing ratio in 1st, 2nd, 5th & 6th, while the Tundra will have the advantage in 3rd & 4th.
    *****
    6.2L will see the light of day. It’s the replacement for the 6.8L, which is a great poweful and reliable motor just drinks a lot of gas. If Chevy is still releasing the 6.0L & new 6.2L, I forsee no problem with the Ford 6.2L as long as the mpgs are respectable. The 6.2L can also be enlarged to a 7.0L if wanted/needed.

  163. Justin – Good point. The V10 can’t last forever. Good point about the gearing too. The news that the 5.0 replaces the 5.4 makes sense. Ford could replace the 4.6 with the 3.5 then right?

  164. Justin says:

    Admin: Thanks, just posting what I’ve heard through many sources (media and FNA current & former employees).
    *****
    We’ll have to see if that gearing helps enough in the F150 to compete with the Tundra on everyone’s highest priority, the 0-60 times. That 1st & 2nd should help when towing and getting going from a stop, but the Tundra will have the advantage there in 3rd & 4th for highway merging. The better gearing in 5th/6th for the F150 won’t be a factor when towing, since most people don’t haul in O/D
    *****
    The 6.8L has is a great motor and still has her legs, but is long in the tooth and with fuel prices, Ford needs to improve in that dept. It’ll be sad to see her go, but hopefully her replacement will be much improved in both power and efficiency.
    *****
    The EB 3.5L may just be the replacement for the 4.6L 3V, once Ford moves to the 5.0L platform. If they can push out 300+hpo/300+lb-ft from a V6 and get better mpgs than the 4.6L, I’m all for it. Depends on where that power comes to play in the rpm band though. The 3.5 may have the power everyone desires, but it may be to high in the rpms to be useful when towing.

  165. patrick says:

    just remeber son 60 years ago a toyota tundra came standard with a whip for your ox and new wheels for your wagon FORDS been running the truck buisness since there was a truck buisness toyota is steppin on the wrong toes , around here we drive ford chevys and dodge just like our dads and grandads preached take your heartbeat of tokyo rice burnin 381 donkey power back to japan this is big 3 country and yall jumped in the game way too late

  166. Mickey says:

    Patrick just say the truth. In less than 10 years Toyota is surpassing your Big 3 and your way of thinking. Maybe it’s time to break that family tradition.

  167. Patrick – Is that a Scottish writing accent? Funny and interesting comment – keep em’ coming. I’ll try and respond as fast as I can, but since my family only has one Ox and wagon, and since we have to sell our rice crop this week, I’m not sure how long it will be until I can log in again at the local internet cafe. I have to go now because the donkey we use to generate electricity is getting tired. Question – do you have to learn the whole ‘bigot redneck’ bit or is it a skill you practice?

  168. Ken says:

    Interesting and enlightening discussion and wanted to chime in to share my recent full truck buying experience. To be up front, I’m a Chevy guy for the most part but I have lots of respect for others and would buy another make if the right one came along. I spent quite a few months before making my buying decision but believe me, I considered all from the Big 3, Nissan AND Toyota.

    Since we are are focused on the Toyota, I’ll tell everone the reason I didn’t buy one. First off, my initial impression of the Tundra was very positive, especially considering the 5.7 liters power output. Afterwards however, things went down hill from there. After doing my usual time consuming due diligence I dicovered a few things that didn’t set well with me. I will not get into the smaller ones now but the big one was the frame. After getting some feed back from multiple mechanics and reading/viewing tests concerning the Tundra’s frame that was it, that finally killed the truck for me mentally. One particular video where Ford tested a F150, new Sivlerado and the Tundra. The frame fles on the Tundra was just plain aweful.. In this particular test I felt the Chevy did the best although the Ford was up there next to it. So basically Ford helped in my appreciated for Chevys in this test. lol

    I was finally settling down to go pick up a new Chevy when I found a 2007 Silverado 2500HD Classic 6.0 with the rare as hens teeth 5 speed manual/4.10 with locker and needless to say, I snapped this thing up in a heart beat. I have been smiling from ear to ear since. I can now tow 10000+ pounds without noticing it’s even back there and I’ve got the upgraded 4 wheel disk breaks which are the best in any Chevy truck I’ve owned. (This will be my 3rd) As far as being down on power compared to the 5.7? Thanks to the stick it’s not really noticeable. I’ve driven many 6.0 Hds and all had the Autos but let me tell you, this new venture gear 5 speed really wakes up the 6 liter and I can get out of the hole darned fast and can paint two black stripes at will. (In 2nd gear)

    One other thing I want to hand to the Tundra is the availability of the TRD supercharger, the 5.7 with this add on is a 500hp beast so hats off and props where they are due.

    However,

    There are also forced induction options for GM and Ford products as well. I plan on doing an STS rear mount turbo on my rig which will bring HP up to 500 and should be a blast to drive with the stick. (Literally)

    The Tundra is a very strong contender but Toyota is going to have to do something with the frame before I will ever consider one. (Frame flex, strange bolt retightening requirements, valve clearance checking with the engine..?? etc.. etc..)

    So all in all, I don’t understand all the hate and vitriol that pervades threads like this. I think we should have a greater appreciation for the wonderful ability we have with the internet and forums like this to exchange ideas and information so that we can all go make our own decisions. We may not all agree but we can certainly learn from one another and keep driving on.

  169. Ken says:

    Please excuse the bad grammar and spelling of my last post, at work and in a hurry. BTW, I hope my brakes don’t “break”. lol

  170. Ken – Thanks for your comments.

  171. jim says:

    I had a 2004 f150 it spent quite a lot of the time at the repair shop rear end brakes cly heads rear end computer shift knob falling off ford spent 22000.00 on warranty repairs i purchased a 2008 tundra the toyota is much quietier lnside no vibratation or shake no awfull black brake dust on the front wheels fuel mileage is better than the ford I had I can hear the radio at 70 mph the tundra has two rubber door seals the FORD is singlar and quites 3 inches from the back of the cab rear doors the tundra has a six speed transmission 430 rear gear the ford is no match for pulling or power the balance weights are not just pounded on your expensive alum wheels so they sit there and mark the heck out of them toyota glue them to inside of the rim the brakes definetly have much more stopping power checking the oil or filling the windsheild washers etc is done from the front of the truck no leaning over fenders the vehicle is very solid lots of north american content drive one close the doors try the easy lift tail gate you will see what iam telling you

  172. Mickey says:

    Justin good points. Down in Jax they have rebates of $10,000 for your ford trucks. Never would I believe any truck having a $10k rebate.

  173. Shane says:

    just wanted to pop in. been reading all the comments. man so much anger but great subject. Im a dent tech and travel the country 6 to 9 months a year. I owned a 2004 silverado 1500. it was a great 1/2 ton truck till things started going wrong too often. i got 186,000 miles. i just couldnt rely on it anymore, cuz of my extensive travels.I bought a 2008 tundra 4×4 crewmax 5.7. The deal i got i couldnt refuse( I’VE BEEN REPAIRING THE HAIL DAMAGE AT A TOYOTA DEALERSHIP) All i can say is that I love this truck! I love everything about it (except mpg, but not a real big concern to me). Everyone I’ve talked to says nothing but praises bout toyotas quality and durability( and no not the salesman, i went straight to the GM).anyways this truck is awesome to me, on and off road. hauls all my tools, pulls trailers like nothing. its great 4 my applications.I was a chevy guy but now my eyes r open to ford and toyota. thanks guys!

  174. Justin says:

    Mickey: I hear ya on the rebates for the Fords right now, especially the ’08 models since the ’09s are starting to show up on lots now. Now keep in mind these rebates are hitting all makes, not just Ford or the Big 3, but also Nissan and Toyota. Trucks sales just aren’t what they used to be. Just look at Toyota and Ford sales comparing Sept 07 vs Sept 08. Ford F-Series went from 56,065 to 32,727 (down 42%) and Toyota Tundra from 19,571 to 7,696 (down 61%). Well to be correct, due to the market (economy), all automotive sales are down and is partly why Toyota is now offering the 0% finance promo on almost every model, as I think only 3 maybe 4 models Toyota sales aren’t available for the 0%.

  175. Justin says:

    I’ve already posted the edmunds, autoweek, leftlanenews and pickuptrucks .com reviews but here are a few more.

    Popular Mechanics has the ’09 F150 coming in #1, while the Tundra came in #5, behind the ’09 Ram (2), Titan (3) & Silverado (4). Some minors details seperate each and every truck and can be a persons personal preference, but they still must be judged top to bottom.

    http://www.popularmechanics.co.....87668.html
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.c.....50-review/
    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/1.....y-matters/

  176. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason) must be out, since my comments haven’t been approved yet. Maybe he’s creating a new article/thread regarding all the reviews recently released about the ’09 F150. But to let everyone know, go to Popular Mechanics website for a comparison of all ’09 1/2 tons. I’ll try not to spoil it for everyone, but the ’09 Ram came in 2nd, ’09 Titan 3rd and ’09 Silverado 4th. So you’ll need to check out Popular Mechanics review to see who got #1 and #5.

  177. Mickey says:

    He maybe Justin… It’s just the local doing $10,000. When Ford does it own commercial it’s $7,500. Still makes a good deal for a truck. Toyota is promoting 0% intrest. Justin until this crisis is over then we can all get back together. Oh Justin did I tell you on my trip in the begining of the month to my wife’s parents house going up I-77 in WVA I hit a deer at 8am with my truck. Speed limit was 70 and I was doing that as I came around a turn in the mountains I saw him crossing the road on an angle. I immediately hit the brakes kind of hard to slow down and got into the inside lane. I slowed to about 35mph when he noticed me and turned around and jumped in front. He was a 7 pt buck about 110lbs. Didn’t kill him and he flew in the air about 10-15 ft into the median. I drove about 50 – 75 ft to the crossover in the median. Stop the truck and before I could get out steam was coming out. I got out and saw the damage and shook my head. Looked up and the deer was trying to get up missing a hind leg. The wife freaked out trying to call 911. I tried the *HP number but it wouldn’t connect. Called a tow driver and he had to tow me to Parkersburg, WV about 40 miles to the north of where it happened to a Toyota dealer. At least $7,000 damage. No air bags deployed. Miss the sensors and also the truck didn’t come to a complete hard stop so they didn’t deploy according to the body shop manager. I’m still awaiting two frame parts to come in. It took out the radiator, tranny oil cooler, fan shroud, A/C dryer, both Halo’s lights, front bumper and grill, dent in hood and pushed driver’s fender in. I’m glad we had the Tundra instead of the Prius. That could have been real bad. Being in the mountains I didn’t try to an avoidance which could have been worse for me or even over the side. ABS worked great as I hit it hard and felt the pulsating in my foot. I posted pics in Tundranetwork.com and Tundratalk.net. I don’t think Jason wants pics on this site. Been down for two weeks now. They may have it done by the end of this week if parts come in.

  178. Mickey says:

    Forgot Justin I was avg 17.7mpg at 70 mph in those mountains.

  179. Justin says:

    Mickey: Dang, I’m sorry to hear about the truck, but I’m glad to hear you and the wife are okay and walked away. The truck can always be fixed and replaced, lives can’t! Now those can be very scary ordeals and many people can make the accident worse by their reaction. Sounds like you did the right thing and took the deer head on without the common jerk of the wheel you see too many people make today. I know when I was young, my mother hit a Mountain Lion driving while we were headed to the grand parents house. Very very scary ordeal.
    *****
    Keep us up to speed on the truck, the overall damage and cost of repairs. I do hope you have a small deductable and the insurance is treating you good. I’ll try to check these other sites out to view the damage, but it doesn’t sound good. It’s simply amazing how much damage an animal can cause. Now I’m not shocked that the front end was damaged as you stated, but it is a little odd that you actually sustained frame damage. When broadsiding a Chevy S10 Blazer a few years ago in my old ’02 F150 while traveling between 40/45 mph, the frame was only slight tweak at the very front, almost un-noticable, but was still replaced since it was out of line. So with your Tundra impacting a buck, I’d think the frame would have held up better. Who knows though with all the crumple zone equipment they have today.
    ****
    So did you get to keep the buck? Are you gonna mount his head? Not to be disrespectful or anything, just thought I’d ask. Sounds like it’d be a nice trophy to show off to the friends.

  180. Justin says:

    Mickey: 17.7 sounds pretty good! Being I live in CO and travel to the Mtns quite a bit (go to a town called Salida from Denver at least once a month), I can bring home between 16mpg-19mpgs (06 F150 5.4L Screw 4×4), depending on how hard I’m on the gas on the inclines and how much I coast on the declines. Most of the is 2-lane highways though which are 65mph limits, but who does this limit at all times in this day and age?

  181. Justin says:

    Anyone read the Popular Mechanics ’09 1/2 ton comparo? Thoughts?

  182. zach says:

    Um im not really sure where your getting your information about the Tundra out towing the F150.. the max towing for the 09 F150 is 11300 lbs where the tundra is 10300 so that is wrong and for safety the F150 Has 5 star rating for the Driver and Passenger. Plus the limited is a tad bit better than the limited tundra. I will give the tundra the tip of the hat for have 381 horses under the hood but Fords 320 will still out tow and out haul a tundra due to its fully boxed frame comapred to tundras semi boxed semi c haha dont know what yall call it but ya. Sorry but the 09 F150 comes out on Top to an 07 Tundra

  183. Mickey says:

    Justin I was asked if I wanted the buck. In fact in WV if you hit the deer you can keep it without calling anyone. I had to decline because I had the wife’s 2 dogs in the truck going bonkers about the deer. ZACH answer a question about box or C Channel which is the difference between the two trucks. Why does Semi’s have C channel frame instead of box frame?

  184. Justin – Sorry about making you wait so long to see your comment approved. I’ve been traveling in China for the last two weeks and I’ve barely had time to keep up with my email and my “real” job :-). We are working on a comparison for both the new F150 and the new Ram. Hopefully we’ll have one of them ready by the end of the month.

  185. Justin says:

    Mickey: Understand the dog issue. Have two myself and any animal other than another dog, and even dogs at times make them go wacky as well. Would have been nice to see a pic of the buck. Oh well though I’d be more worried about the truck. Again good luck and keep us informed on the updates to your truck. Hope they get her back to “like new” status soon! And don’t accept any short cuts. Have had many autobody shops, including dealers cut corners, which they always ended up paying for it in the long run by correcting their mistakes.
    *****
    Admin (Jason): No worries. We all have other items more pressing to cover so a little delay is of no concern. But I do appreciate you getting the post approved and posted. I look forward to reading your review since the 09 is finally out. Sounds like the F150 is still behind the Tundra in the get up and go dept, but has made some nice advancements in many other areas. PM reviewed an F150 with 3.40 gears (which Ford doesn’t offer so I believe this is a typo, more likely 3.55 gears), but would love to see how much the new F150 cuts the 0-60 & 1/4 mile times with the 3.73 gears. Which sad to say is the highest gear set they offer in the 09s. Also, I hope you enjoy your time in China! Get yourself some nice souveneirs (sp?) and take a load of pics. Try some of the exotic foods as well, even though some of the bugs and creatures they serve don’t look or sound to appetizing.

  186. Mickey says:

    Justin update. The parts came in today and I can pick it up Monday morning.

  187. Justin says:

    Mickey: Wow, that seems quick, especially if all the parts just came in and you can already take delivery. Must be quick & easy for them to swap out these parts. Gonna feel like a new truck, at least that’s how I always felt after getting my vehicles back after being without for a period of time. Hope she looks just as good as prior to the buck incident. Good luck!!!

  188. Mickey says:

    I’ll lay my bottom “buck” it will.

  189. Steve says:

    “Chevrolet sold 50,428 Silverados last month, off just 3.9 percent in a plummeting segment that saw Tundra, Motor Trend’s 2008 Truck of the Year, fall 60.7 percent, the Ford F-150 drop 41.6 percent and Dodge Ram off 30.9 percent.

    Toyota had hoped to sell about 20,000 Tundras a month this year; September sales were just 7,696 units.

    Lentz said part of the decline was an abbreviated 2008 model year from its Texas and Indiana truck plants that were temporarily shut down. With a segment forecast to be as low as 1.5 million trucks–down from a peak of 2.5 million–the pickup fight could get desperate.”

    What he is saying is we can’t even run 1 shift in our 5billion dollar plant, because we have a 120 supply that wont sell.

    Lets put this in perspective,, Ford sold 32,727 Gm sold 50,428 and Chrysler sold about 24,974 Then we have the Tundra at (cough) 7,696 even with 0% and $2000 cash back. High resale value (which I dont believe)= not to many out there. Also I dont see it listed that the tundra needs the frames replaced even if you are involved in minor accidents??? Also Toyota considers the tailgate a door and warns customers about overloading it in the user manual. So 40k for a pillow hauler. Wow I need to Call Ford, Gm, Chrysler and see if I have to remove their tailgate. Nah I already know the answer. I have no sympathy for people that buy Toyotas and get burned. Why you would buy a truck from a twice failed truck producer over 3 companies that have been doing it for 100 years is mindblowing.

  190. Mickey says:

    Steve…ahummm. Let’s see October’s sales. Who had the worse? Yes Ford, then GM, and Dodge. Well Toyota was off 26% but was better than your three. Also you have to ask a question and wonder if I buy a big 3 vehicle will they be around to fix it? Who’s asking for a bail out? Who’s talking to Toyota for help? Have you been watching the news? Who is closing plants also and laying off those union workers? What really gets me is your two big auto makers there showng these big gas guzzlers a chevy duelly pulling a load, Ford crewcab carrying a full payload bragging about having the best gas mileage in the industry,but in small words stating it’s only in the regular cab short bed truck can this be done. How misleading can you get. I hope you did your research about your domestics and their recalls, not to mention how many. The tailgate happened to a few customers and it hasn’t been recalled for the simp-le reason they haven’t had enough problems with it to be forced to do a recall. What you’re telling me is the NHTSA is run by the Japanese and they won’t recall it’s own. I can simply state my case in a Chevy on headliners. I had it replaced 10x on my 06 in less than 16 months. Or my Ford the computer over 11x to fix in a 6 month period? Not to mention all recalls on both trucks. Why would someone keep buying an inferior product that you have so much issues with? What it breaks down to Steve go on your domestic’s websites like this and see if you can do what you’re doing here. How many times can you get banned in one day. I’m suppose to buy a Ford because a country singer backs them? Or a chevy because a football player backs them. Sorry Steve I’m real and I choose what I like and I won’t have any hollywood type B/S tell me to buy their trucks. I don’t care how long your big 3 been making the trucks. Apparently your big 3 lost there touch and the views of their customers or you wouldn’t be complaining about a Tundra on this website. It’s funny in the time Toyota started making the big Tundra your big 3 are scared of the new kid on the block. Look at your big 3 financial woes. I guess mass producing a product isn’t the way to go. Funny Ford copied Toyota’s 6 speed tranny to help them out. That right there shows the simple things your big 3 wasn’t thinking about there customers. Now you should be thanking Toyota for making your big 3 make more reliable vehicles instead of mass producing. A little quality goes along way. Steve I know Ford is considered like mom’s apple pie. I hate to tell you I don’t like apple pie even if mom made it.

  191. Justin says:

    Mickey: Not defending Steves post, but if you review the 1st link below, Tundra sales for Sept. 08 vs Sept. 07, were down 61%, while the F-Series sales were down 42%. For the year 07 vs 08, F-series sales are down further (26.9%) compared to Tundra sales (20.4%) (as of Sept.). Also for October 08, I’m showing in the 2nd link below, that Tundra sales were down 65.4%, while F-Series sales were down 16.3%. I’d account for many of the F150s drop in September/October sales being due to people waiting for the ’09 F150 to be released. Similar to what happened to the Tundra in Jan. & Feb. of 2007. People held off buying the out going model to test the new version before deciding.

    http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/otf0999.html

    http://blogs.motortrend.com/63.....index.html
    ****
    And best mpgs, it’s actual the Ford F150 SFE model, a Crew Cab 2WD 4.6L model, not a Regular Cab. Tied with the Silverado Crew Cab XFE model at 21mpgs highway.
    ****
    Recalls are almost always safety related issues, which the tailgate crumpling under load isn’t really a safety issue, but there have been plenty of documented issues. Just like your headliner issue in your Chevy, not really a safety issue, so NHTSA won’t require a recall. Your Ford ECU was more than likely an anomaly and very rare case and why NHTSA didn’t recall. Have never heard of any F150 owner having this issue other than yourself, and I have spoken too many. Not saying it didn’t or doesn’t happen, but there must not be enough reported problems to force Fords hand on the issue of a recall. I’m sure all makes/models have similar issues that are never resolved and aren’t recalled due to them being very rare cases and exceptions rather than the rule.
    ****
    Ford actually had a 6spd released around the same time as the 07+ Tundra being released (2007 model year Expedition). Working out the bugs prior to releasing it in their most popular and best selling vehicle. Plus, they could have been waiting for the redesign to release. So Ford has had it in the works for quite a while, just wasn

  192. Steve says:

    Well Mickey, I see you didnt like the numbers, hmmm. I just can not believe someone would go thru 10 headiners,remember Gm buys the headliner from a supplier and then Gm intalls it on the assembly line. Sounds like you had a bad dealership experiance to me, something fishy their. Couldnt even find recall info on a 06 chevy truck(I assume) Same with the computer issue. Most domestic bashers add about 100% to there claims. Anyway no comment on the 7k numbers hmmm. I was just stating some real numbers I can try to post the links next time. Toyotas own site is where I got them from. I was going to comment on the 6 speed trans but thank you Justin. See Toyota must not of tested it right because their sure is allot of trany complaints. Recalls who had the most of 2005/2006.

    Toyota, a Recall Leader?
    “Toyota saw a departure from its quality-obsessed character

  193. Steve – You’ve done an incredible job of pointing out the same issues that all domestic owners use to criticize the Tundra. Tailgate failures (quite limited in scope) and complaints about the frame (subjective at this stage). All your missing is the tired old “20 breaking camshafts” and you’re 3 for 3. Unfortunately, none of these points hold much water. Your attempts to paint the Tundra as a failure by looking at sales figures are laughable – perhaps you’ve been under a rock for the past few months, but sales figures in the auto industry are horrific. There is a giant blood-letting going on in the auto industry, and as Mickey astutely pointed out, there’s a good chance one of the not-so-big three likely won’t make it. Where will that leave their owners? Finally, your points about recalls are uninformed. Recalls and quality aren’t necessarily linked. If they were, Ford likely would have gone out of business in 2001 when the dreaded Firestone tire recall hit (along with a bunch of other recalls). Instead of trying to tear down the Tundra based on anecdote, why not demonstrate why the F150 is so vastly superior? The answer: It’s not. The two trucks are terribly close. Let’s put all this hyperbole behind us.

  194. Justin – The SVT Raptor F150 is IN-SANE. Awesome job – I like it so much I’m going to put a post together. Ford gets an A+ on that truck for sure.

  195. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Thanks! Simply wanted to provide an update on a future Ford/F150 release (mid 2010). There have been rumors and spy photos flying around the net for a little while, but finally looks to be slated for production. Even though I love the sound of this truck, I have three major concerns:
    ****
    1) Cost
    2) Sales
    3) Warranty
    ****
    Having all the improvements that the articles state it does (7″ wider body, high-performance bypass shocks, heavy duty leafs in the rear, new upper & lower control arms, tie rods, larger half shafts, ball joints, high strength steal from the SD’s, heavy-gauge axle tubes, 6.2L, special powertrain operating mode/off-road mode, 4.10, locking diff, custom sheet metal and hill decent control), what will be the entry level cost? If Ford doesn’t price it right, sales will lag.
    ****
    Will this be a niche vehicle (more than likely) such as the Lightning & SRT-10 and such vehicles? Will sales cover the R&D costs? Will Ford take a loss? Of course this could depend on #1, the sales cost.
    ****
    How will Ford warranty this, being built for such purpose? I

  196. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Per your post to Steve, looks like GM/Chrysler are in the works for a merger. Ford is hurting, but my personal opinion is they aren’t going anywhere. They are slowly building better products, selling off less than stellar makes (Land Rover, Jaguar, etc), improving quality dramatically, which is helping them climb out the hole they dug themselves.
    ****
    Now word recently has GM/Chrysler merging. Talks are supposed to pick back up now that the elections are over.
    http://www.marketwatch.com/new.....D281B92%7D
    ****
    If GM/Chrysler merge, I would assume many products would be scrapped from both. Would they continue to make both the Ram & Silverado/Sierra, or start building one truck across the board? Would they use the LS motors or the HEMI? Would they use Dodge 8 cylinder RWD vehicles and GM 4 & 6 cylinder FWD vehicles? Don’t think Jeep would go anywhere, as they have a niche market locked up, but their product lineup will be reduced. This also impacts Nissan, since the next Titan is to be a Ram. So if the Ram was scrapped, would the new Titan be a Silverado/Sierra? A lot of questions.
    ****
    True, recalls & quality do not always go hand in hand. But at times they do. Look at the Titan for example. It had its share of recalls when released. It also lacked overall quality, mostly fit/finish. Nissan has improved the Titan in both areas, but sales are still lagging (only 1007 Titans sold in Oct.

  197. Justin – In regards to the Raptor, your points are spot on. I’m also concerned the truck will “miss.” The intended audience – sport truck buyers – are finicky. Will they view this truck as an excellent compromise between factory reliability and off-road performance, or will they decide that it’s more “show” than “go.” That’s the trouble with these niche halo cars – every brand has tried them, and the vast majority register as failures (at least in terms of profitability). Still, Ford must be given credit – the Raptor seems like a great version of an SVT F150 as opposed to all the sporty go-fast trucks that never made much sense to truck buyers or sports car buyers…as for talk about a GM/Chrysler merger, the bottom line is that Jeep, the Ram, the minivans, and the RWD cars will survive (they are profitable). The rest of the Chrysler products will likely die a miserable death. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if the merger led to the death of the “Chrysler” brand as we know it. The trouble with the merger is this – no one will finance it without some sort of government guarantee. With a demi-crat in office, the chances of that happening just increased. It will be interesting to see how consumers respond to a Ram built by GM. My guess is that Nissan, which would be a much more logical merger partner, will step up with a better offer to buy Chrysler once the government provides some financial guarantees. That will make it a lot less risky.

  198. Steve says:

    Well thanks Jason.

    I see domestic bashing so I just have to comment, I will gladly admit Toyota makes a comparible truck when they do just that. Do I care what a F-150 can tow? Not really. Do I care that a truck that Toyota says can out tow Ford F-150 only has 5 lug wheels, yes, gets bad milage, yes. Has a chessy interior, frame flex, no real life tow hooks, tailgates that cant be used like most truck owners expect.yes, yes,yes and yes. Basically the Tundra is a heavy half. Most people that buy 1/2 ton vehicles dont over payload them or over tow with them. People that do go the next step and buy the 250/350/450 that can tow more and do it safely and get better mileage. Just like the Titan they go and brag about all this horsepower and tow ability, then forget to build a rear axle that wont overheat and fail. Due to the fact it doesnt hold enough gear lube. I wrote that all of the auto companies are hurting(missed that?) but despite that the domestics are still selling 5-10 times more trucks. Ford sold 436,022 ytd . I see people saying but they sold blah blah % less, ok they still out sold the Tundra 121,451 ytd. October 2008: 6,425. Yes you are correct Laughable. And how many are the 381hp version. So your % posting means nothing. So obviously I am not the one with issues. I also didnt originally bring up recalls. And I also agree most recalls are not assembly related. If you are having ball joints, driveshafts, transmissions, rusty bumbers failing, wouldnt that be a quality concern.(parts) As far as recalls I was only commenting to someone that said his vehicle had all these recalls on his 06 Chevy and Ford. So someone thinks that equates to quality. But then its ok for Toyota.
    So let see the F-150 has none of these issues, looks better gets better mileage and has a 5 star crash rating too. So maybe we should compare the Tundra to the F-250 or Chevy 2500 or Chrysler Ram 2500 heck they out tow it.

  199. Steve – So you’re saying that because the Tundra gets bad mileage (EPA rating is the same as the 08′ F150, and the 09′ F150 tested by Popular Mechanics had worse observed fuel economy than the Tundra, btw), has a “tailgate problem” (FYI – Toyota issued a TSB that indicated some vehicles had issues, that the tailgates should be replaced if the customer has an issue, and that the problem had to do with some bad welds. This is more media hype than real-world issues), no real-life tow hooks (is this an assumption based on your experience, a TSB, a recall, or just something you read somewhere once), 5-lug wheels (not sure why this is important), a cheesy interior (according to you), and frame flex (not an issue for most owners, but definitely an issue for some), you think the Tundra is a piece of junk? And that because Ford sells 5-10 times as many F-series as Toyota, you’ve proved yourself correct?

  200. Steve says:

    Ahh, couldnt add my last comments. Truth does hurt!!!

  201. Steve – I don’t understand what you’re saying. Have I summarized your point?

  202. Mickey says:

    Jason just like you mentioned the firestone problem and one other you forgot was the cruise control fire hazard Steve doesn’t recognize. He’s stuck in his own world. Yes Ford made more trucks last year. Who has their hands out for the govt to bail them out Steve? Well now you can say YES. As for you not believing what I wrote about my wife and I experiences with ford and gm over their trucks I won’t lose sleep over it. Since GM got rid of Body by Fisher it’s been downhill for them. Steve try 3 dealerships. Infact the second dealership that tried it came down in days time frame. Yes GM knows of the defect that it was cut short but wasn’t about to do anything with it. Steve since you didn’t find the recalls tells me you don’t know how to look it up. Steve if you want proof look up Tundratalk.net and see the pics for yourself. You don’t see me on a ford or gm site because I have better things to do. Justin as for the numbers tell ABC/NBC evening news which aired that info on Novenber 2nd.

  203. Reid says:

    Mickey and Justin. Whats going on, still haven’t found a life yet I see. So whats the feelings on Ford new towing capacity? That must be upsetting, a truck with less power and torque saying Tundra does not have a thing on them by increasing their Towing Capacity by just changing the transmission and a couple mods to the engine.

    Now whats up with Dodge, 401 hp how are you guys copeing with that?

    I dont see any recalls from any domestics about a yoke shaft cracking or breaking in half. Oh but wait you will bring up bursting in to flames and other issues right, but what do domestics know. What there drive shaft isnt breaking in half. Besides the domestics biggest issues are modules like the one that caused the , they where proably made by a subsidinary of Toyota or in the same country as their headquarters. Too bad Toyota will not by quailty metal that isnt more than .016 thick for there exterior skin or hell if they just could make a quailty frame. Theres a start. Wait isnt Tacoma having a problem with their frame rusting in half. Yes that right folks, breaking in half. Do you really want that quailty??

    Toyota said I can play with the big boys and the Boys said OK bring it.

    Heres some of your fellow owners comments:

    “I went to my local Toyota dealer and wanted to test drive the truck and when i went to get in it the dor handle broke off!! I now have a 2007 Dodge 1500 HEMI and a 2006 Dodge 3500 Dually Cummins. And i will tell you when i was driving that Toyota it didnt seem anything to scream about. I work at a local auto reapair shop and go racing on the weekends and i brought my race trailer with me. They let me hook it up to their Toyota and when i took the trailer off my Dodge and put it on the Tundra the rear of the truck saged alittle but that was ok. But then when i went to drive it the tranny temp gauge got into the red. Now the trailer only ways 10,200!! This truck is more for a weekend golfer not for a work truck. The inside looks like it couldnt take much of a beating. And i has more of a car like set up much like the Titan. I would not recomend this truck to a heavy hauler. Also when i went to design one for me i would of been almost 42,000!!! I could by a 3/4 or 1 ton truck for that much!! And i still think that the Tundra still looks like a big fisher price toy.” –BROKE OFF!

    I like this one. “I own a 2008 Crew Max Limited with about 17,000 mi on it. After owning Chevys, GMCs, Dodges, Fords and Toyotas for my business, here’s the experienced truth on the new Tundra. For a truck that is close to $50K sticker, the quality is just not there. There are elements of this truck that I find great, the Nav screen, the 5.7 engine, the comfort, the back up camera, and the overall performance. This is my personal daily driver and is kept in showroom condition. But even with this care: The interior fit and finish is not good, lots of clicks and rattles, especially in the cold…plastics and joints don’t fit together well. The drivers seat leather is already wearing a hole, and stitching has come out. Exterior paint is thin and chips very easily. Bed and tailgate are extremely thin and you need to be careful when loading and unloading heavy objects, or it will dent, flex, or bend. Basically, don’t use it for a truck! Normal ride is very good (actually better than most trucks) but go over rough pavement and the bed shake/frame flex will rattle your kidneys out, and I do not have the TRD package. The truck is great for trips with the kids and towing moderate loads. I would not buy it to tow 10K lbs. If you want to consistantly tow this kind of weight buy a GMC with the Duramax. For passengers, the DVD and big back seats that actually recline are great, however, there are better vehicles out there for this purpose especially in this price range. The resale value is not nearly as good as Toyota would lead you to believe. The saving grace is that reliability has been good, and the service toyota offers is excellent.” Its a good thing they offer great service.

  204. Anonymous says:

    Mickey here’s you’r facts in response to your bailout comment. The bailout went to just about everybody, oh yhea that is a AMERICAN company. We already paid them enough to rebuild after WWII. Toyota is headquartered in Aichi, Nagoya and in Tokyo (JAPAN).

    The Burma Campaign UK has listed Toyota on their Burma “Dirty List”. Toyota

  205. Well I have to say I like the attack on Toyota’s labor practices. Of course, my response is that maybe if the not-so-big-three had been cracking the whip a little harder (instead of finding a way to pay union members NOT to work), they might not be in the situation they’re in. Domestic auto manufacturer executives could follow the Japanese example as well – when your management leads to failure in Japan, you resign (and that’s not with a golden parachute either). Why don’t U.S. auto execs follow that same practice? Any time you want to compare executive compensation between domestic and foreign automakers, let me know…that’s a whole other ball of wax.

  206. Reid – Not sure what you want to say here – those quotes are interesting but anecdote isn’t really proof of anything.

  207. Steve says:

    See how Mickey is trying so hard to discredit Gm and Ford.Yet they both still outsell Toyota Tundra. Firestine recall on Explorer?? Didnt know it was a F-150. Thanks to all the lazy stupid people that cant check their tires once in a while, Now it is going to be Fedrally mandated, which means more cost to a vehicle because people are no longer responsible once they get behind the wheel of a vehicle.
    Ok Mickey is it 3 times a piece at 3 different dealers, 4 times at one, 11times are we getting confused?? I can understand one or two time but 11, sorry. I have 3 friends with 05,06,07 Chevy trucks, two are beat to death but still perform like they where intended and have over 180k on them. The 07 has 100k and has never been to the dealer for any major issues. And what is funny is I asked all of them if they had any headliner issues and none have. Again you are the one bringing up recalls not me. If you want to get into a discussion regarding recalls we can. The only recall I could see was this= “2006 Silverado: Some vehicles may have a power steering hose that could crack and leak fluid. Dealer will inspect and replace the power steering hose.”
    And as posted above the Domestics here in the UNITEDSTATES asked for loans, which mean payback. But hey it might be bailouts now. We will see.
    I also love how the Tundra can have all these issues, some serious,but it is all OK. But a bad headliner is worse.
    Also if the domestics had a level field or the field they have in Japan, Korea, China, we wouldnt even have this discussion. So do a little research on this and get back with me.

  208. Justin says:

    Mickey: The figures I provided were for Full-Size trucks only (Tundra vs. F-Series sales). You are correct that Ford is further down than Toyota as a whole. So we’re both correct, just looking at different figures.

    http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....08-to.html
    http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/otf0999.html

  209. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Problem in the US, not just in the auto industry, is accountability and consequences with the leadership ranks. The culture in the US anymore is to blame someone or something else rather than accepting fault. If found at fault, or when someone accepts fault, there are never any consequences. Just look at many of the companies that have faltered due to bad business practices and how their upper management barely gets a slap on the wrist and walk away with multi-million dollar buyout/severance packages. This wouldn

  210. Mickey says:

    Steve first of all I didn’t state the headliner was a recall. You did. I let you run with that. I stated 2 recalls. I understand when you don’t want to see. Oh by the way for the 2006 model they have 10 recalls, the 2008 has 2 recalls on the same two items the 2006 has. Imagine quality when you can’t fix it. You mentioned one with the power steering the other was about the tire pressure markings on the door were wrong. The headliner will never make a recall because it’s not a safety issue. It’s listed as a defect. Steve I also had a 98 Silverado that had been in the shop only three times which was the best truck I had till now. But the 06 proved everything wrong. GM Customer support saw to that. Same as Ford customer service. Justin/Steve call it loans if you will so why the banks won’t give them the loan? It’s a bail out. Justin I agree with you on the roll overs are caused by the SUV going 80 mph when the tire goes out and the reaction of the driver causes the roll over. Also the top heavy SUV’s don’t help either. I mean all SUV’s. Hey Reid how about recalls on your gas tank (Ford) for both F-150 & F-250. Also 4 other recalls on the F-250 (Tranny is one of them) look before you leap, and the electrical equipment and electrical lighting on the Chevy’s? Also Reid I thought we had this conversation about towing? Still towing over the limit?

  211. Steve – The Firestone recall also included some 2wd F150s (mostly work trucks, and not very many at that) as well as most SuperDuty’s with the Firestone Steeltex tires (I know cause I worked at a Ford dealer at the time). So, no, recalls and quality aren’t necessarily related. As Justin has pointed out, the problem wasn’t with the Ford product. The problem was with a poorly managed Firestone factory, yet Ford suffered a huge sales loss that it STILL hasn’t recovered from. I also agree that any individual’s experience is no substitute for facts. Finally, I still so no relationship between sales figures and quality or overall value. Consumers are loyal to a fault – if they weren’t GM, Chrysler, and Ford would have gone out of business in the late 70’s when everything they made failed to meet even the most basic quality and fuel economy standards.

  212. Justin – I agree with the idea that executive comp in our entire country is out of line, and I also believe that the Japanese model of “company first, worker second” is incorrect. Still, the fact remains that Japanese companies employ U.S. workers (with their high legacy costs) to build the Camry, the Tundra, the Solara, and others (as well as more cars coming on line in the next few years). I would submit that the reason that the domestics can’t build most vehicles in the U.S. profitably (yet are able to make tremendous profits overseas) is the UAW and the strained relationship between workers and the company. The “us versus them” attitude that unions use to drive membership is divisive and hurts productivity. I would also say that the profound difference in the health care systems between the U.S. (private and pricey) and Japan (nationalized and cheap) is part of the reason too. Personally, I think it’s just fine for a company to build a car in one country and sell it in another. Our global economy dictates that low-tech jobs should flow to countries with low labor costs, while high-tech jobs should be created in high labor cost countries. It just irritates me that the “buy American” crowd derides Toyota for making cars overseas while the domestics do the exact same thing.

  213. In regards to recalls and buyouts – Recalls are a favorite tool for “proving” that a vehicle has a problem. They’re no indicator of quality, so we don’t place a lot of importance on them here (unless, of course, the recall was forced by government action). Buyouts are unfortunate, but they also have little to do with quality. Having said that, the argument that Ford, GM, and Chrysler make better trucks because they sell more must be weighed against the dollar amount of the buyout. After all, if the U.S. taxpayers send $50 billion to the domestics, aren’t we paying for a part of each and every one of those vehicles? Doesn’t that mean that sales are somewhat subsidized? Let’s hope that bailouts aren’t a necessity, and that GM and Chrysler find a way to cut costs before they are forced to file bankruptcy (both are estimated to run out of cash in the next 9 months).

  214. Anonymous says:

    Mickey, your right you got me. Ford sucks, GM is falling, and DODGE is a gimmick.
    As for your Tundra I hope things are well, hows the head liner? I hope it isn’t failing, but you would go right back and buy anther one just like you did with Ford and Chevy and complain about it.

    “Shop lifter, get him Mickey”

    No comment over the whole American issue, enjoy your Toyota. United we stand divided we fall. Flights leave for Japan everyday.

  215. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Agree with both your posts, nearly 100%. I see the 2nd post slightly different than your view, but not by much. Heck, the Feds are giving the banks, what $700 some million dollars and AIG is using these funds inappropriately, still. So the $50M to the domestics is a drop in the bucket in comparison. Hopefully they’ll proper distribute these funds and get themselve bank into a better situation. Either way, I see the bailout/loans as both good and bad.

  216. Mickey says:

    Anonymous I like how you put it United we stand and divided we fall. How was the trip down? Also Plane flights leave for Mexico and Canada daily. Make sure you have your passport. As for your comment don’t go away mad…..Just go away.

  217. Anonymous – The whole notion that we’re ruining our country because we’re not buying “American” fails to acknowledge the fact that your typing on a computer that was made somewhere in Asia. Since you didn’t buy a computer that was “Made in America,” aren’t you part of the problem? I’m not pointing fingers (it’s nearly impossible to buy something that was truly “made in America,” even the stuff that IS made here often includes parts, tools, and/or expertise from somewhere else), but the inconsistency is noteworthy.

  218. Justin – Thanks again. We keep agreeing like this and I’m going to start wondering if I’m doing my job…

  219. Reid says:

    The anonymous comment was mine. Last time I check Dell is made in USA. The point that was being made is stop your whining and complaining, if you dont like the current sitiuation of the US, economy or your current line of employment (Mickey= wanna be cop, security guard) do somthing about it. Buying imports does not help the economy if the majority of the profits goes to Japan.

    Since this forum seems to be about how the Tundra is so much better that the F-150.

    Tundra issues-
    Failing tailgates (buckling)
    Electronic issues (stereo, crusie control and etc.)
    Drivetrain issues (yokes breaking in half, transmission issues)
    Bed bounce.
    Corrosion issues (Mickey are you still waxing you chrome every week to keep it from rusting, I know its called PROTECTION right, stop trying to wax a turd) THATS QUALITY
    A quote from Truck Trend, owned by MOTOR TREND who names the Tundra Truck Of The Year “But what you may not have seen is that Toyota has already passed both Ford and GM in a differ end category – automotive recalls”, “What’s more, the current recall related to the Turdra trucks and Sequioa SUVs is similar to the same defect in 800,000 of the same vehicles in 2005. Maybe somebody at Toyota isn’t paying attention?”.

    So whats the issues with the F150?
    Tundra copied the rear suspension from the F150.

    And yet Tacoma’s Frames are BREAKING in HALF, Keep prasing those POS’s and the future will tell about Tundra’s frame.

    Look at f150online dot com for some really good picks of the GREAT tailgates Toyota produces.

    Mickey in a closing comment, please stop the kids in the mall from running when your at work and enjoy your “Pearl Harbor Limited Edition” Tundra.

  220. Mickey says:

    Reid since you’re pretty much a sore loser and constantly need a pat on the back since you’re the one who constantly comes on here whining and complaining that you didn’t get what you want. Okay now lets take a look at the problems the F-250 is having since you went with that.
    First recall Powertrain automatic transmission control module.
    second: Electrical system (Battery).
    third: Air bags frontal drivers side.
    fourth: Seats??? I’m lost on how your seats got put in this.
    fifth: Of course the gas tank issue.
    F-150 has the same problem with a gas tank. I take it the battery, seats and gas tank were made in mexico so there’s the mix up. Oh but Reid you forgot the camshafts. Don’t leave those out. Cruise control there Reid? Ford had the biggest issue with cruise control and the fire hazards they were. Now for the 2007 Tundra has one recall not all what you listed and that’s only on the 4×4 propeller shaft. Reid if you really want to know everyone copied Ford’s truck since Ford came out with the truck first. Reid I don’t know if you have notice that going to a Ford website how bias they are towards their truck. You come here and say Jason is bias towards the Tundra and you missed the mark completely. Jason by all means is fair in his assessments. I don’t agree with Jason sometimes but one thing I will tell you he is fair about his comments. Then again you’re bias because you hated your tundra. Funny thing you bought one. SO you supported Japan and you want to give me hell youre a Hiprocrit. No matter you sold your Tundra you bought one done deal Jack face the music.

  221. Mickey says:

    Reid also let’s bring up the biggest amount of recalls on a Ford product? Heard of the Taurus? Since you want to bring up other vehicles there you go not to mention your explorer roll overs.

  222. Steve says:

    love these comments,,,

    Anonymous – The whole notion that we

  223. Reid – Take a look at this link. http://www.madeinusanews.com/content/view/419/97/ – maybe it was “made” in America, but it’s not MADE in America. The point is this – “Buy American” means about as much as buying WWI war bonds. It’s a sentiment from another era that has little meaning (or reality in fact) today.

  224. Steve – True. Still, the point is the same. There’s very little that’s truly “Made in America,” so the idea that you should buy from one company instead of another based SOLELY on the basis of some misplaced idea of national origin is flawed. If you want to help Dodge or GM or Ford earn more profits because they’re headquartered in the USA, so be it. But that isn’t a logical basis for assessing a vehicle, especially considering a significant chunk of the cost will go to another country…which is the argument against buying a Toyota in the first place.

  225. Anonymous says:

    Sales stats from October

    1. 2008 Ford F-Series
    October 2008 Sales: 43,324
    Change vs. October 2007: -19.4%

    2. 2008 Chevrolet Silverado
    October 2008 Sales: 31,689
    Change vs. October 2007: -37.4%

    3. 2008 Dodge Ram
    October 2008 Sales: 17,626
    Change vs. October 2007: -31.3%

    4. 2008 GMC Sierra
    October 2008 Sales: 11,256
    Change vs. October 2007: -37.8%

    5. 2008 Toyota Tacoma
    October 2008 Sales: 10,001
    Change vs. October 2007: -22.6%

    6. 2008 Toyota Tundra
    October 2008 Sales: 6,425
    Change vs. October 2007: -65.4%

  226. Reid says:

    The explore why is someone going there. Due to the fact soccor moms like Mickey couldnt check their air pressure and where blowing out tires with help from Firestone, you wanna blame Ford. Taurus? What about them the car it self lasted over 10 model years. When is the last time a domestic company ever had to buy back a vehicle because it is breaking in half not just one model but two?

    Hey i gave imports a chance, it just drove home the point.

    I don’t have any hard number on this but:

    a) How many Pinto’s actually exploded?
    b) How many Ford transmissions actually slipped out of park into gear?
    c) How many GM pickups actually caught fire due to the placemend of the gas tank?
    e) How many Ford Explorers actually rolled over?
    f) How many Ford vehicles had cruise control problems causing fires?
    g) How many GM pickup truck tailgate cables actually failed and hurt someone?
    h) How many Corvairs were truly ‘unsafe at any speed’?

    I’m sure these were only a handful too, not thousands upon thousands. But, their overall effect was to destroy the reputation of domestic brands. Toyota in the last several years (at the Pinnacle of their ‘quality superiority’, no less) have had the following major problems:

    1) steering link issues on Tacomas and 4Runners
    2) engine sludge problems on various engines
    3) tranny problems on v6 camry’s
    4) 2nd gen Tundra steering problem (if that’s not it, please correct me)
    5) Tundra camshaft problems
    6) Tundra transmission problems
    7) Tundra tailgate problems
    8) possible frame cracking on Tacomas and FJ’s
    9) now possible Tacoma acceleration sticking problems

    The point is serious issues are popping up w/ Toyota, and will their perception be hit as happened to the domestics? Time will tell, but CR already pulled the plug on them. If these were a domestics’ problem, these things would be splashed all over the news. As it is, it barely gets mentioned and then it’s overlooked.

    I can speak from experenice about owning a Tundra, dont get me wrong they are cute. I think I will get my daughter one to play with.

  227. Mickey says:

    Reid I have to hand it to you. You keep trying to bring me down with your kid comments. I deal with kids all the time so now you are just another one. Reid to make it easy for you simply put “you’re full of it”. To say if it was domestics it would be all over the news but since it’s Toyota, it won’t get a second look. You killed your statement with that last paragraph. Ohh by the way since you stated that Toyota copied your rear suspension and I guess Ford also invented the 6 speed tranny too that you finally came out with. Another thought for you Reid Ford had the same electrical issues for awhile also. Good try. By the way leave that toy alone it’s your daughter’s you had yours.

  228. Steve says:

    Hey Reid, Keep up the good work, anyway the Ford Pinto, they sold over 2 million cars from 1970 to 1980. And their was 27 fires. Also why wasnt the Mercury Bobcat so bad?? Exact same platform… Its the same today as then cars arent able to withstand the force of being rear ended at 55-80mph.

    “Only 27 people ever died in Pinto fires. Given the Pinto’s production figures (over 2 million built), this was no worse than typical for the time. Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time, that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles, and that the supposed “smoking gun” document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford’s callousness in designing the Pinto was a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document used to design the Pinto.”

  229. Reid – First, have you conceded the point about “made in America” being pretty meaningless, or are you just re-loading?

    I think that you’re absolutely right about the domestics suffering from an un-fair bias in regards to quality. Toyota (and Honda) often get a pass for issues simply because they’ve been building pretty damn good cars for the last 30 years. It is what it is man. The domestics shoved so many pieces of junk off on unsuspecting consumers for years (depending upon manufacturer, anywhere from 1970 to 1999) that consumers have got it in their heads the domestics are inferior. We can do lists of bad vehicles until our ears bleed, and while I’m quite certain I can name more bad Ford products than you can name bad Toyota products (I sold Fords for years), that’s got nothing to do with nothing. Here, now, in today’s world, the F150 and the Tundra are both good trucks.

    Ford still hasn’t addressed their blatant power disadvantage, but they’ve added some great features. You point at anecdotes of problems and sales figures as proof of the Tundra’s inferiority, but anecdotes and sales figures have no impact on the real world value of either of these trucks. If sales figures were proof of a vehicle’s value, than the Toyota Camry would be the best car in the world for a few years running…but that doesn’t make sense. I think the best car in the world is probably something made in Germany, and I’m thinking that company doesn’t sell more than a few thousand of them a decade. SO, keep posting sales figures if you think it helps, but I don’t see how they matter.

  230. Justin says:

    Mickey: Please research the Explorer roll-over issue. You’ll find in the studies conducted (20/20 as example), the most common cause of the roll-overs during the Firestone recall, were due to driver error not design. Like I’ve stated before, and Jason has agreed (sorry to pull you into this Jason), all SUV’s are top heavy and more likely to roll than your standard car. Put a 4-Runner or S-10 Blazer of the same era thru many of the same manuevers and they’ll follow the same patterns as the Explorer did.
    ****
    I’m not as familiar with the Taurus, but do know it had its fair share of recalls back in the ’90s. Couldn’t say if it truly had more recalls than your avg car or not.
    ****
    As stated before, Ford has had a 6-spd trans in the Expedition since the 2007 MY was released, which was mid-2006. This pre-dates the Tundra 6-spd trans released with the ’07+ Tundra in Feb. 2007. So Ford has actually had a 6spd longer, but not in the F150. Ford usually tries out many options on lesser selling vehicles, to work out many of the bugs, prior to dropping into one of their better selling vehicles. So you are correct Toyota has had a 6spd longer in the truck, but not on the market,
    ****
    I’m curious as to what electrical issues were speaking of? Sure I’ve seen certain Ford models have issues, but not wide spread nor in any Ford I’ve ever owned. Just trying to find out if this is someones personal view or if there is statistical data backing this statement.
    ****
    And like Admin (Jason) has stated, why does everyone keep brining up TSB’s & Recalls about other cars (Ford/Toyota), when we’re trying to compare the Tundra/F150. I could care less about the Pinto, or the Toy engine sludge, unless those problems are impacting the Tundra/F150 currently. The domestics have created a bad name with consumers for many years, due to some of their less than stellar products. Does this mean every product during those years were bad? No. Does this mean their products of today are worse than the imports? No. And I agree with Jason on the CR and such reviews regarding quality and what not on vehicles of today. The domestics dug themselves a hole with many consumers & reviews, that they now have a steep hill to climb to display they have improved their products. All while the imports, for the most part, have continued to make quality products for years. I agree the imports get a little biased review (good way), simply due to what they’ve done in the past, while the domestics also get a biased review (bad way), for the same reason. Are all the imports models superior to the domestics models? No. Are all the domestic models on the same level as the imports? No.

  231. Justin says:

    Found this to be a good read. About the Big 3.

    http://www.freep.com/article/2.....2/BUSINESS

  232. Mickey says:

    It was intresting Justin and if it was the deal then the Big 3 wouldn’t be in trouble. Chapter 11 is the way to go for them to reorganize and come out stronger than before. Since they seem to want to threatened the public with closing down the plants laying off people if they don’t get the bailout when actuality they will still have to lay off some management and trim the fat. Chapter 11 will allow them to check out all contracts and see what is working and what’s not and then stop the what’s not. Along with the Feds watching them to make sure they get it right will make them stronger. As before I stated I’m not for the union. The money these people make is way overpriced. This will be one of the what nots that will be worked on. I think also the amount of dealerships the Big 3 has can be cut down. Where I’m at here in Jax it’s 3 to 1 or it could be more. About the rollovers I did write it’s mostly the drivers fault. About the rcalls I responded in kind. You must admit when someone on here (Reid) states to buy American and we are the cause of the downfall of the economy simply forgot he bought one also. No matter he traded it in he was part of the cause he states what’s happening here. Other than Jason you see on this website is myself a Tundra owner and I come on just like your self to question/answer/links etc any results put out by anyone to make sure it is right no matter what manufacturer has it.

  233. Justin – I think the argument against BK is that it would undermine the brand for years to come. Still, with all this talk of bailouts, the damage to the brand has likely already been done. So long as the American consumer stays abreast of the slow collapse of GM and Chrysler (and maybe Ford), I don’t know that they’ll react in a huge way to a bankruptcy filing. As Mickey (and a few others) have said, BK gives the domestics a chance to fix some big problems. Chap. 11 allows for closing lots of dealerships and factories, renegotiating labor contracts, selling off some big fixed assets, and dumping some health-care responsibilities. Still, I’m concerned about the impact that could have on our economy. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens. I think we can all agree the fact that this is happening is a travesty.

  234. Justin says:

    Mickey: Even though I do partly agree with you on the BK portion for these brands, I am concerned for the suppliers and the dealer workforce. Being these suppliers and dealers are owed quite a bit of change by the manufacturers, I’d hate to see these folks take the brunt of the domestics problems. How many suppliers could potentially be caused to close their doors because the domestics file BK? I hate seeing the little people getting hurt by mis-management of such huge corporations, which these upper ups usually continue to get huge bonuses and compensation pkgs (use of private jets to visit with congress, etc). I am also concerned about the closing of plants and layoffs, but to exactly what extent this will happen, no one truly knows. Agreed the dealerships need to shrink, but I can only see that as hurting the consumer, well the workforce too I guess. Less dealerships means less options and competition, so you’ll end up not getting the good deals you once did because there are less options/competition.
    ***
    Agree 100% on the unions. They had their day, but are simply a drain on too many companies now, taking more from the companies than they give in return.
    ***
    I think if the Feds do end up providing some sort of bailout pkg, which doesn’t look too likely, they should have a controlling interest in the companies. Personally of the three, Ford is in the best position to make it without BK. A few years ago with their old management in place, I wasn’t so sure of that. At that time, they were the most likely to require BK and go under. Now GM & Chrysler, I think they have a much tougher road ahead of them and need some serious changes throughout both corporations. My question is, if GM files for BK and end up making it out and continuing business as usual, wouldn’t this require both Chrysler & Ford to follow this same path? If GM can write off its bad debt, it can then basically produce a vehicle much cheaper, due to less overhead costs, then that of Chrysler & Ford. Then again, would a consumer be willing to purchase a vehicle from a company recently out of BK, not knowing what the future holds for the company?
    ***
    Agree on the rollovers. Also, I understand how certain posters can be and try my hardest simply to avoid them or change the topic. While I try to purchase American made, I know not all parts and/or vehicles are made in America. I know not all profits stay in America. Just like with foreign makes, not all profits go overseas. I buy what I feel is the best product, whether it’s American or not. I do hate when people state you are un-patriotic or un-American, simply because you bought a better product that is made elsewhere.

  235. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Agreed! There would be some positives for the corps. with filing BK, but could potentially impact the economy negatively for years to come. Like you stated, we’ll have to wait and see what happens next. Think GM needs to try and salvage itself by selling off some of its brands, if possible, not just Hummer. Overall though, all three corporations need an unbiased review of their business practices and management to find many of the underlining problems. Think these three have tried to sweep these problems under the rug for too many years hoping they could weather the storm, but are now finding themselves with a much bigger mess (duh!), with no realistic options on how to resolve the dilemma.
    ***
    The one issue I have with the Feds and not providing any funds (bailout) to the domestics, is due to their bailouts of the financial institutions. I admit, the financial institutions need is of much greater importance and the impact is farther reaching. But for the Feds to say the domestics brought this upon themselves while not seeing many of the finacial institutions did as well, is simply hypocrisy at its finest. The domestics had some bad business pratices and need to admit so, but so did many of the financial institutions but it seems like it’s okay for them. The domestics are asking for 3% of what was given to the financial institutions. Yes these are HUGE amounts, but the domestics request is a drop in the bucket in comparison. I know the Feds just gave the domestics what $25B, but this was to be ear marked for hybrids and fuel efficient vehicles/standards, not to help turn around some of the existing problems within the companies.
    ***
    I don’t know. I’m up in the air right now on the issue. Can see both points of view. Just mostly concerned for how each scenerio will hurt the economy and the working class.

  236. Andrew says:

    TOYOTA is the biggest piece of Sh*t I have ever seen…..just admit it u over seas rice drivers.. FORD is by far the best vehical on the road….for has had the best truck for years. my dad went to the rough plant and got to test Ford, chevy, and toyota. they broke the front end OFF the toyota. look it up your self. you should watch the truth about trucks videos and you will SEE the difference. toyota frame flex is i believe 1.5 inch the for is .005 inches. seriously i could go all day. LOOK IT UP..

    DECEMBER 2007 — Toyota is recalling 15,616 MY 2007 Tundra 4-wheel drive pickup trucks. Due to the improper heat treatment of the slip yokes that had been reworked during the manufacturing process, the hardness of the slip yoke may be insufficient. In this condition, there is a possibility that the yoke may break causing the propeller shaft to separate at the joint and come into contact with the road surface or the fuel tank which could result in a loss of vehicle control or a fuel leak. Dealers will inspect the slip yoke and replace the propeller shaft if necessary. The recall is expected to begin during January 2008. 07V-579
    DETROIT, May 29 (Reuters) – A glitch in Toyota Motor Corp.’s Tundra pickup truck has caused 20 engine failures and forced it to track down other trucks at risk for the problem, the Japanese automaker said on Tuesday.

    Automotive News – May 28, 2007 – LOS ANGELES — A batch of camshaft failures in 5.7-liter V-8 engines has dinged the launch of the Toyota Tundra pickup.

  237. Mickey says:

    Andrew do we need to respond to your Johnny come lately report? Also you’re way off on the camshaft problems. Here I will flip you a quarter so you can get into the ball park again.

  238. Mickey says:

    Justin I do agree with you in that Ford is in the best shape out of the 3. Maybe someone will buy out GM and then sell it back to them once they rebound at a huge profit.

  239. Mickey says:

    Like I said Justin about the recalls. I respond in kind. This time I will let it go.

  240. Steve says:

    I see we wont allow facts and article to back them up,,, Cant make Toyoda look unperfect right.

  241. Mickey says:

    Steve if one person was to die in a fire then that’s enough right there. yes you stated 27 people died in a vehicle that had over 2 million built. Now where you place a human life? One is to far in my case. If it was a family member you would see it another way. Maybe life isn’t important to you but it is to the NHTSA. They may the call and that’s it.

  242. Andrew – Your comment looks like it was written by a drunk person. Let me know when you catch up to 2008 and we can talk.

  243. Steve says:

    Sorry Mickey that is not what I was commenting about.
    I commented about other things and posted links and wahla, not on here. Because it made Toyoda look real.
    Anybody dying due to a accident is horrendous, But sometimes the blame is directed in the wrong direction. If I am stopped at a intersection and someone plows into me a 50,60,70mph, how is that the fault of the car I am in? Pinto vs Caddilac Fleetwood, 1 for the Caddy. Caddy vs Caddy bet the outcome is different. Read all the accident info, not one was a Pinto rear ending a Pinto. It was always something way bigger. Again why wasnt the Mecury BobCat in the campaign.

    Mickey Said in November 22nd, 2008 @5:53 pm Steve if one person was to die in a fire then that

  244. Steve – I’m concerned that a link you posted was deleted on accident. The software that powers this website automatically deletes any comments it determines to be “spam” – sometimes incorrectly. If there’s a link to a story you wanted to post, please place it in the comments again. If it doesn’t work, I’ll email you and post it myself.

  245. Steve says:

    Fair enough, Thanks.
    Steve

  246. RAmbo says:

    I think that you are dreaming
    My dad bought a 08 tundra
    I have an 05 f150 and for me its more strong, comfortable and safaety
    Ford makes the best trucks of world EVER. toyota has good cars but they need to learn about durability and capability its not a work truck has good looking yeah but.. put it to work in the desert like my ford isnt going to have good results i know because a friend s 06 tundra loose the engine when he was far into his ranch my god boys its a shit let the trucks to ford

  247. koom says:

    I a agree with bryan and in my opinion the tundra blows in comparison to the “king of all trucks” (chia) I’m a gm dude but i would prefere a ford cause shooot they is dependable reliable and the force in the mother loving truck worl. Lets see what would most average americans go for: The foreign rice pudding or the back yard burger?? I will admit the tundra is nice for a low ridder but when it comes to big boy things ford…. well ford is dominate end of discussion lol

  248. koom says:

    also I own a 2000 expedition with 244185 miles and is pulling me like a monther grizzly and her cubs… see most of you toyota loving fanatics would use that ol’ “oh wait till you reach 100000 then you’ll notice them fords going south” stupidity. for all you left-handed screw driving joes out there that’s just about any truck out there but when it comes down to it a ford is long lastin better yet an american truck is long lastin cudos to the 60’s 70’s and 80’s 90’s truck owners ya’ll know a REAL truck with potential

  249. Mickey says:

    Hey Rambo good try…. You have to be around next year to talk about it. Koom you lost all credit with what you’re talking about. You first state you’re a GM dude. Now you’re all head over heels for Ford. What Bryan wrote back in January about the cams show exactly you didn’t do your homework. Now for building trucks in the 60’s why are you coping technology off the Tundra? In a short time of 8 years building a full size truck we topple yours? What are you afraid of? Other than filing bankruptcy if you don’t get a bail out. Yes you do know a real truck when you see it. Too bad it’s not your brand. You might want to lay off those burgers so much it can give you a heart attack from cholestrol and high blood pressure and possible diabetes. Also learn spell check.

  250. Rambo – I get it – you’re not angry at us, you’re angry at your father. I forgive you. Koom – I don’t get it. The basis of your argument is that Toyota can make a good low rider but not a good truck? We never said Ford didn’t make a good product – we just think the Tundra is better…and we’re coming out with a comprehensive comparison to prove it.

  251. Daniel says:

    Well Tundra might be less fuel efficent than domestic trucks right now….. But its only a matter of time before they catch up in fuel economy, besides tundra didn’t care about fuel economy when they turned out these trucks, and I don’t care either, burn it all. So all you domestic guys out there watch out. Its only a matter of time. So write your Domestic auto makers and tellem to step it up.

  252. Steve – As for your link, the way I read the test, the only reason the Tundra placed third was a lack of integrated trailer brakes and the new trailer sway control systems. Take those two features out and the Tundra is number one, which means in all other respects the Tundra is equal or better. That’s what we’re saying, man! :-)

  253. Justin says:

    Mickey: I won’t even reply to Rambo and Koom, not worth my time and energy.
    ****
    But I do question your statement of “In a short time of 8 years building a full size truck we topple yours?” Exactly how? Other than the power output from the motor, I can see no advantage that the Tundra has over the ’09 F150. The large brakes are nice, but the more I read about this Tundra, the more I’m finding the brake pads are wearing out prematurely and the rotors are having issues with warping.
    ****
    Also, did you read the pickuptruck.coms shootout between all ’08/’09 model full size trucks? If not, below is the link, but guess who won? I’ll admit the Tundra had it’s winning aspects, but as an overall truck, it came in 3rd. And I was amazed the F150 actually got the best mpgs. Not by much (.5 mpgs) but still a nice improvement.

    http://special-reports.pickupt.....t-out.html

    ****
    Have you seen Oct ’08 full-size sales figures? Tundra sold 6,607 vs 14,988 for Oct ’07 (down 55.9%). F-Series is still the leader, 37,911 for Oct ’08 vs 46,568 for Oct ’07 (down 18.5%). Tundra is now down more for the 2008 year (28%) than Ford (25.4%), Chevy (23.5%) and Sierra (17.5%) and barely better than the Ram that is down 30%. Here’s the link.

    http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....008-t.html

  254. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Actually, there was more to it than just the trailer brake and sway control. The lack of a quality interior and the ergonomics of the interior. Had the worst driving impressions when unloaded and the worst off-road impression. It was #1 or #2 in all the power depts. Hear are a couple blurbs from the review. These are areas that I think truly hurt the Tundra.

    “But the Tundra lacked in other areas, like interior friendliness and its ride quality offroad and when unloaded.”

    “The Tundra

  255. Justin – While I agree that the dash is less than visible, ergonomics and ride are subjective (I like a firm ride in a pickup). Still, my point is if you take 3 points away from the GMs and the Ford for the integrated trailer brake, and 3 points for the sway control, you have the Tundra coming out ahead. The fact is we’ve towed for years without integrated brake controllers and sway control systems and done just fine. I don’t see these results declaring a clear winner – if anything, it looks like PickupTrucks.com has placed the value of two accessories above the superior performance of the Tundra.

  256. koom says:

    Hey mickey if you want to help me wit ma spell check how bout you teach me english or spanish….. What I was tryin to say was that yeah I am a gm guy but i found the light and nerve to switch to the ford brand. I was skeptical about these dem ford trucks cause if i remebered correctly them recalls were alarms that i watched for but the ol sayin goes judge not yet ye be judged. any way when it comes to style ford has that rugged look im lookig for and the interior is cranked (and yes i am writing in hebonics) meanin its da ish… while toyota has that quetion mark in style though it sits real nice and it do got swag but the interior is smashed up meanin its stupid but calm.. and yes in 8 years? wow all they did was supersized a t100 put a 3/4 in a 1/2 big frekin whoop gave it a tranny wit steroids but over all who is the one most would want somethin PHONY or somethin REAL and i can tell you never ate a steak dinner dude so stick to ya shrimp fried rice lol do i need to remind ya’ll of dat election past??? I will not choose or suck up to THAT ONE (lol) jus yet………dueces

  257. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): You’re side stepping the issue. The trailer sway & brake control are improvements in safety and towing ability. If you give credit to the Tundra for having such a powerful motor for towing, you also have to give credit to Ford for having these two items available. Just like side-curtain airbags. The Tundra was seen as better/safer than the ’04-08 F150 because of this aspect. So why knock the F150 for having options not available on the Tundra? I can flip the scenerio on you too. We’ve towed in 1/2 tons without 381hp/400 and some lb-ft for years too, so why is that needed anymore than the trailer brake and sway control? If you take away these options from Ford which give it an advantage, then you must take away the 5.7L and 4.30 gears from the Tundra. Like on “Pinks”, run what you brung. You can’t discount/discredit the F150s win soley because it has options (some standard) that the Tundra doesn’t.
    ****
    I’m also used to a firm riding truck. But in today’s day and age, ride quality is an area of improvement. I’ve been on plenty of long road trips in trucks, and they can be very uncomfortable at times, especially after a long day of working or at the lake. Why knock the ride quality if it still has the truck capabilities? If the ride quality decreased capabilities, I’d agree, but it does not.

  258. Anonymous says:

    Koom speak whatever you want. I live in America and the language is ENGLISH. No need to say no more to you. When I can understand what you are trying to say I will respond. Justin I forgot to put the word (did) before we. In a short time of 8 years building a full size truck (did) we topple yours. I was asking him that question. Hence the next question What are you afraid of? Interior no matter how you look at it, it becomes opinionated. It’s one preference over another. That goes for ergonomics too. As for the big knobs I don’t see that as an issue. It’s preference. For your $41,000 price is to high for cloth interior. I have a limited version with leather and my sticker was at $40,000. I don’t have a NAV so that’s it. I bought mine in July 07 where the prices were high at that time. As for brake pads when I rotated my tires at 45,000 I have just under half a pad life left. My tires can go another good 10,000 also. As far as warping and brake pads being wearing out early Justin you know this is because of how they are used. Hard on brakes yes they will wear out early. Keep your foot on the pedal can cause the warping just as well as hard braking while towing. This happens to all trucks. I agree with Jason about taking away the sway and brake control you would be evenly matched up. Yes it’s a great safety feature. Like myself I tow a boat which the weight doesn’t require both added safety features. That’s why it should be an option to get if you desire that. Not everyone tows with their truck.

  259. Mickey says:

    My comments above. Power went out caused the problem.

  260. Justin says:

    Mickey: Understood. Now in 8 years, I will agree Toyota has surpassed the domestics in certain aspects of full size trucks(most notably power), but not all. They are right there in the hunt, at least in truck capabilities, not sales yet.
    ****
    Are you asking what I’m afraid of, or Rambo or Koom?
    ****
    Sure to some, interior (including ergonomics) is an opinion, but it is quantifiable aspect of every vehicle. If your statement was true, are you telling us that a Kia or Daewoo, with their cheap plastic interiors make these cars equal to or better than that of a comparable Toyota or Honda, etc? Why do you think a Lexus or BMW and such vehicles use such quality materials and countless hours are spent on laying out the dash and controls? How about the GM and Ford interiors of the 90

  261. koom says:

    well excuse me from comin from the souf i wright how i speak so yea i do need to work on it…. I did ma homework on dis here “truck” (if you can call it that) but i ain convinced that this thing can out tow out power out anything nor can go off roading…. i mean in “8 years” toyota all of a sudden wants to get involve in the truck worl i mean why mess wit a gud thang in making cars wit gud gas?? if it ain broke don fix it

  262. koom says:

    also what about differnt truck models i mean theres like what 7, 9, 12 different truck models in tha ford worl compaired to waht 3,5 in toyota????

  263. Mickey says:

    Okay Koom you feel threatening by a truck that has only been making full size trucks for 8 years. Ford has been at it since day one. As for how many models is this why your CEO has his hand out for the govt to give him a bailout. Having many models and not selling all of them is one of many reasons your company is in money trouble. Having a few models where you can get options added on to your liking is alot easier on the company. That’s why you order what you want instead of a dealer pushing the B/S at you. I have a limited missing only two options. No need for sonar or a Nav. I have a reverse camera which I don’t need the sound to tell me I’m close where I can see it. I don’t get lost. I have everything else I like. I’ve added mods I prefer on my truck which I got several from Toyota parts dept. You’re not convincing me with models to think Ford is better. I had 3 fords already. One was an 03 F-150. I guess my light bulb is out because to me there is no light for Ford or Chevy.

  264. koom says:

    I ain threatened just dat i feel like a kid in a candy shop when it comes to this subject i’m overwhelmed that something out of the sky finally wants to try and take over in its first year then theres that senerio of quality vs quanity which i will admit that ford was more concerned wit quanity but now see’s that it was getting greedy and is falling back on quality my opinion is i need something that i can cover as much ground with 11k+ lbs at ma back an i feel its those f150’s

  265. Mickey says:

    Actually you don’t need an F-150. You’re at the end of that towing range. You would be better off in a F-250. It can tow more and handle it also.

  266. Justin – Fair enough. Comparing every option is valid, and you’re certainly correct that the F150 should get credit for these features. Still, I don’t understand how the scoring weights were determined. The Tundra gets 0 points for lacking those features, but the others get 3 points for having them. Yet these 6 points account for the Tundra’s 3rd place finish and about 10% of the total score for the F150 and Silverado. Does this mean the F150 is 10% better on the basis of these options alone? If so, I strongly disagree. My point is that these options are over-weighted. When we compared the safety features of the 07′ F150 and the 07′ Tundra, the lack of stability control was a game changer (and rightfully so). NHTSA data shows a 40% reduction in single-vehicle accidents with stability control. When NHTSA rolls out data to show such a tremendous safety advantage for the integrated tow controller and sway control systems, we’ll change our tune. However, for now, these two features don’t make the F150 or Silverado 10% better than the Tundra. I for one would rather have bigger brakes (Tundra) and more power (Tundra) than either one of these tow electronics when it’s time to pull a big load, and I would guess that many consumers would agree. The PickupTrucks.com shoutout is pretty solid, but the point system needs a lot of work. My guess is that if we all sat down and hammered it out, the Silverado, the Tundra, and the F150 would end up pretty close to tied. I’d also like to point out that the point system unfairly adds value for relatively even results. i.e. fuel economy is roughly even across the board (individual drivers and trucks will vary anyways), yet the Silverado loses tremendously because it places last. Finally, the efficacy of any test that regards the Silverado and GMC as different trucks is fundamentally flawed. Those trucks are different in name only.

  267. Justin – One more thing – the Tundra was the first truck to be an IIHS top safety pick – “The 2008 Toyota Tundra was the first large pickup to earn Top Safety Pick” – http://www.theautochannel.com/.....59864.html.
    ***
    Texas auto writers probably picked the Cowboys to win the superbowl last year too, but that don’t make em’ right! :-)

  268. Justin says:

    Koom: I’m an F150 backer, but like Mickey stated, please do not try to use the F150 or any 1/2 for constant 11K lbs towing. If you seriously need a truck to two that much on a consistent basis, please move up to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. You’ll be much happier in your towing experience if you do so.

  269. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Thanks for understanding why I feel this is an item that shouldn’t be discounted. I do agree the scoring system needs looked at and tweaked, but overall it’s not too bad. I’ve seen much worse scoring systems in my days of reading reviews. These options may be over-weighted, but think they still need to be considered in the overall score. And like you stated, if we as consumers compared them side by side, I’m sure they’d come out basically even. Heck, there was only a 5pt difference between the F150 and Tundra anyways, so depending on the consumer and their preference, this outcome could have been completely flip flopped.
    ****
    Part of my reasoning for the trailer sway and brake controls, is also due to your statement on the stability control reference from your 07 F150/Tundra review. The F150 was knocked (and rightfully so) for not having this item at that time, which it does now (RSC) in the ’09 models. So now that the F150 has the two trailer items, it’s only a plus and these items should not be over looked simply because your preference is not to have/need them. Also, in your ’07 model review, you stated the Tundra was safer due to the advanced saftey features the F150 didn’t have (curtain airbags, stability control, etc) even though it had a worse frontal crash rating. So now that the F150 has the same safety features, a better frontal crash rating and top rating from NHTSA, can you agree the F150 is now safer than the Tundra?
    ****
    Again your want of bigger brakes and more power, is a personal preference. This is nice since you’ll always use those items even when not towing. Myself, I like the current F150 setup and think better trailer control when towing would only be a bonus. So if I was in the market for an ’09 model, I think I’d still opt for an F150, but still would give the competition a good try/test. I know some people on the Ford sites I frequent want more power out of the F150, which is a justified request, since it is down in comparison to the competition. Then again, this is a small portion of the posters on these sites and make up roughly 10%, if that, of the frequent posters. My only question on the power dept in 1/2 tons is, when do the power increases/one upping each other end? How much power is truly needed in a 1/2 ton? Will we eventually be see 500hp, 600hp 1/2 tons trucks and will people really need that much power? These trucks are already reaching into the 3/4 ton capabilities in all aspects as it is.
    ****
    True the GMC & Chevy trucks are different in name only, but look at the results. Simply shows that every truck that rolls down the assembly line is different. Could get a good F150 or Tundra in one test, while in a test by another mag/site, the results may be different due to these anomalies. Was one truck built on a Friday and the other on a Monday? The GMC was rated at a 50 vs the Chevy at a 58. Sure they are basically the same trucks, but I personally like to see the ratings so we can compare all makes/models.

  270. Justin – All good points. I won’t agree that the F150 is better than the Tundra in terms of safety simply because the two trucks have the same test results (except for the NHTSA tests of course). I know that’s going to seem inconsistent, but I’ve never been too impressed with NHTSA crash tests. Still, many people would say that the F150 is safer and I would say that’s a fair statement (but I won’t agree). :-) I think testing both the GMC and Silverado polluted the test results, but I agree that many consumers would find the test lacking if they both weren’t tested. I also agree that you can find significant differences truck to truck, yet one more reason why these trucks are all very close. I dislike point systems because they usually don’t calculate effectively – i.e. no easy way to assign points based on importance. You can’t give 3 points for a trailer brake controller AND the same 3 points for braking performance – one is clearly much more important. Still, even if you try to assess points carefully, you often end up with results you don’t like (a truck that really didn’t impress but does many things well can win a comparison despite the reviewer having little or no interest in buying one). In my opinion, points are best for clear achievement – not for subjective reasoning.

  271. Anonymous says:

    Justin I know it’s hard to believe what I said about my chevy problems without showing proof about it but this should show something towards that mentality GM has been doing to it’s customers.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081208/us_nm/us_gm_ad

  272. Justin says:

    Mickey: Oh I totally believe you for the most part. The domestics did have quite a bit of problems during the 80s/90s & early 00s that they simply tried to sweep under the rug. Like the Chevy & F150 issues you’ve had, I had a similar experience with a ’99 Explorer (Exploder). Had it roughly 2.5yrs and was in the shop the majority of the time with many issues, most minor, but some more extensive which they always stated were “normal” until the part failed and I had to pay out of pocket for replacement. This has detered me from ever purchasing a Ford SUV again. Of course I’ve also owned 5 Ford trucks (80 F150, 85 Ranger, 99 Ranger, 02 F150 & 06 F150) and have not once had a major issue, only minor items like a window switch or blown speaker (during my younger much louder music days). Of course most my friends are loyal GM purchasers, which during these years they’ve had many more issues with their products than I’ve had with my Fords. Could be the luck of the draw, could be the company or product, who knows. Now I will admit I am a die hard Ford truck & Mustang fan, but the other products by Ford/Lincoln/Mercury, I’m not as fond of and have seen them have many more issue in my days. I will agree with the domestics that they have slowly tried to turn around this bad quality, which I think is SLOWLY working. Problem is they burned so many bridges during these years that many consumers won’t even give them a second look, even if their product is better quality or a better overall vehicle than what the imports offer. It’s their own fault, which they must try to fix, but it’ll take time. Just like it took the domestics roughly 2 decades to drive consumers away to imports, it might take that long if not longer to win many of these people over and bring them back to their product. I’m glad one of the domestics (GM in this case), has finally stepped up to the plate and admitted what they did. Doesn’t make it right, but at least they are admitting their mistake, owning up to it and wanting everyone to know they are dedicated to improving. Now is this just noise in hopes to bring customers in or to please US Gov., we’ll just have to wait and see.

  273. Justin says:

    And the 2009 Motor Trend Truck of the Year is:

    http://www.detroitnews.com/app.....60411/1148

    I personally do not like Motor Trend, but this is for those hooting and hollaring about the 2008 MT TOY award.

  274. Mickey says:

    New vehicles only….. You went against 3 vehicles and one of them was a Hummer!.

  275. Justin says:

    Mickey: I understand it is for “new” vehicles only and is partially why I dislike MT’s COTY and TOTY. But what about all those people bragging about the Tundra winning the award for 2008? And now they want to discredit the F150 since it won for 2009. Sounds like a double standard to me. The F150 competed against the Ram, Suzuki (rebadged Nissan Frontier) and the Hummer H3T. Where as the Tundra competed against 3/4 & 1 tons and won mostly due to a more car like ride (duh) and it’s powertrain for a 1/2 ton model.

  276. Justin says:

    How about, Detroit News COTY (Mazda6) and TOTY (F150).

    “The 2008 F-150 was the best all-around truck on the road. Now, the 2009 F-150 replaced it.”

    http://www.detroitnews.com/app.....148/AUTO01

  277. Justin – I hate to sound like a typical biased truck owner, but we never put much stock in the Motor Trend “Truck of the Year” award even when the Tundra won it. Still, congrats to Ford. The F150 is awesome. As for the Detroit News, I’m perplexed as to why the Ford won for it’s work ability (makes sense) but the Ram was considered despite it’s decrease in work ability year-over-year. Again, the F150 is a great truck and it will likely win a lot of awards with the new design.

  278. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Oh I completely agree with your point on MT. I don’t put much weight/stock into their COTY or TOTY awards.

  279. Mickey says:

    The only problem I have with MT is why wait to 2008 to give the Tundra the award. If it was to be given then the 2007 model should have been in the mix. No matter what time frame the 2007 came out still it was the new change. So be it if Tundra wouldn’t have won it in 2007. I know I won…..

  280. Mike S says:

    Have any of you driven the 09 F150’s? They have the Tundra beat everywhere except for the drivetrain. When is Toyota going to come out with the next Tundra build?

    Toyota needs to do some major work on the Tundra and if I were them I’d start with a fully boxed frame this time.

  281. Justin says:

    Mike S: Haven’t had a chance to drive the ’09s yet, but been to the dealer a couple times and they do look mighty nice, both in and out. Prefer the color clad grille over the fake chrome grille and can’t stand all the buttons on the center stack. They are tempting to drive, but I’m sure I’d want one if driven, which I can’t afford to make the jump just yet. Plus the fact I never purchase the 1st or 2nd MY of any new vehicle.
    ****
    Don’t think Toyota will look at changing anything drastically, especially the frame for at lest another 3yrs. Maybe they’ll upgrade some of the interior plastics and correct some of the small bugs/issues the Tundra has displayed, maybe a different grille or items along those lines, kind of like a facelift. There is simply too much R&D costs in the current model to try and make any huge or drastic changes just yet. They will need/want to recoup many of these costs before deciding to make significant changes. Just my opinion though.

  282. Mickey says:

    Box frame doesn’t make it better Mike. Tougher or thicker metal will though. If box frame makes it stronger then why do semi’s have C channel instead of box frames.

  283. Mike S says:

    I keep writing to Toyota asking about the new build or what they have in line for 09 or the future. They keep giving me the same ol” Thanks for your concern” reply.

    I never thought I would go back to a Ford after owning nothing but Toyota’s sine 1991 but the new F150( other than the drive train) is one nice truck.

    The thing is solid and well built. I agree about the new builds and waiting for the bugs to be worked out.

    Toyota needs to put the quality back into their vehicles like I’ve experienced in the past. This new Tundra other than the powertrain is a major dissapointment.

    Toyota might not need a fully boxed frame but they need something and that joke of a frame thay have right now isn’t cutting it.

    I hope the next build has some major improvements.

  284. Justin says:

    Mike S: I agree completely with you on the Tundra, other than the powertrain, I feel the Tundra isn’t up to normal Toyota standards in regards to quality, and even the powertrain has had some bugs. The frame in its current build is suspect and interior material quality seems less than stellar compared to many other Toyotas. Think Toyota can improve the frame, but don’t think a boxed frame is truly needed/required. The interior should be quick/easy to improve upon though. Otherwise the more notorious bugs have been or are being cleaned up.

  285. Mike – I understand your frustration, but I think you go too far. The Tundra is a tremendously capable vehicle, and in many ways it is superior to the F150. Having said that, the lack of a boxed frame and some minor quality concerns (nothing major, but not quite what we’ve come to expect from the world leader) could be grounds for buying an F150. However – the Tundra has a higher projected resale value, it’s more powerful, and it’s certainly no slouch in any department. It’s pretty close to a tie no matter how you slice it, and I’m 100% confident that the 09 F150 is going to have some quality problems in the next 12-18 months (at least as many as the Tundra did and likely more – at least if history is any indicator). Considering the uncertainty surrounding Ford’s future (certainly less than the concern surrounding Chrysler and GM), and the potential for a huge drop in resale value following a Ford bankruptcy announcement, buying a Tundra is a very logical choice.

  286. Mike S says:

    There is no way I’ll buy a Tundra in it’s current build configuration. I just can’t believe how cheaply built it is.

    If it didn’t have the power and the tranny( although it’s had plenty of TQ issues)It would be the worst truck currently in production.

    If Toyota was smart they’d skip right to the next build now and start over. The only thing I’d keep is the drivetrain and even the engine could use some work. I’ll be waiting a couple years until we pay off the new 4Runner so I have time to see how this all shakes out.

  287. Mickey says:

    Mike the Tundra doesn’t need a box frame. It’s proven by Semi’s not having a box frame utilizing a C channel. If they beef up the metal in the C channel will help out alot. Now to say the engine needs improving you definitely lost me on that.

  288. Mike S says:

    Lifter noise and sounding like a diesel with the valve or lifter noise leaves some room for improvement. A 2008 I hear start up every morning sounds like my neighbors Dodge Cummins.

    It is the best part of the truck by far but a bit of refining wouldn’t hurt would it?

  289. Mickey says:

    I don’t quite know what you have Mike. I don’t have that noise. I have 46,500 miles on mine.

  290. Anonymous says:

    When your talking about a semi’s frame you seem to forget somthing. When do you see a Kenworth off-roading? If you look at a semi starting from a standstill you will see the frame twist, but if you pay close attention you will also see the gap between the hood and cab contract and extend due to the flex. So with this being said what do you think is going to happen when you happen to twist that frame on uneven ground with a load. Bed contacts cab, theres videos about it. Wait didn’t NSHTA have somthing to say about the frame. Somthing to the effect of its a reason it not receiving a FIVE star rating.
    So whos Toyota compensating for the sales loss? Who is going to bail them out??
    As for Toyota dominating the domestics in Performance and HP, didnt Dodge just call bluff with the new design of the Hemi. I can see the domestics sitting around laughing about Toyota. Dodge beat the Tundra HP with the new designed Hemi. Ford is still waiting for someone to come close to the V-10 (somthing about 450 ft lbs of TQ) or 5.4 supercharged. Chevy is just trying to stay afloat.

    So whos the Tundra tailgates holding up?? Its the truck that is changing everything. Mostly their rating in Consumer reports to worst that average reliablity.

  291. Mickey says:

    About the semi your twist depends on the driver of the semi. One who knows what he’s doing takes off quite well. More than likely you see the engine lift up one side of the truck as it takes off that’s just an avg driver. When put against an experience one he won’t lift it that way. We can sit here all day while you try your best to compare. It breaks down and it shows you’re worried about someone taking your piece of pie. Your V10 isn’t all what it’s cracked up to be. Is it standard on the 1/2 ton or is it an option? To start off with anonymous besides (No Name) who’s the ones that got a bailout? Toyota hasn’t asked for one and yes it reported it’s first loss for a quarter. How many quarters have your trucks reported a loss? I can see why you left no name talking about a tailgate and C/R. When you’re afraid it shows….Try again when you get some.

  292. Bobby says:

    haha this site is such a freakin joke. Everyone is hating on toyota and its supposed to be a TOYOTA site. Thats funny. Anyone with a brain knows that all the comments are from people who work for FORD, CHEVROLET, and DODGE. yall need to try harder if you really want people to think this crap is real.

  293. Bobby – ??? Don’t understand what you’re saying.

  294. Brian258 says:

    Ok Ford is coming out with a 6.2L it also gets 18mpg highway if you have any questions about that call the engineer also why does the toyota tundra frame twist just driving down silver creek at 25mph
    also 09 f150 gets up to 21mpg highway lets see a toyota do that
    if you do not believe me on this frame twist check out these videos your self
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx3QGObyj2U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
    oh ya heres that trailer control system it really works great
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

    if you have any ?’s ask me

  295. Brian258 says:

    hey mickey the reason a semi frame actually twists is because on average a semis motor puts out over 800ft lbs of tq put a solid plat of steel under that it will still twist and with useing a C channel frame and “beefing it up” just adds weight and loses MPGs and with the CAFE MPG law in place the Tundra could be BAND from the usa also toyota can not bring there diesel into the US because the emissions are missing 42 of the 50 points needed to pass

  296. Brian258 says:

    oh just so you relize how much power 800ft lbs of tq really is i did a test with my impact wrench (it only has 650 ft lbs of tq drilled a hole in the middle of a 2 inch thick chunk of steel stuck a grade 8 bolt in it and used a grade 8 nut and started to tighten it (the bolt was brand new) the bolt is no longer in one peice

  297. Mickey says:

    Brian my Tundra gets 22-23mpg. As far as your wanting the band so much so you won’t look so bad Sorry we are here to stay. As far as using you tube and the dirty guy… Well needles say I trust you tube as far as I can click it.. Also your dirty guy is a spokesman for Ford, How original….. One thing only an idiot would go over bumps like that at 25mph. If you’re into by all means break away. Wow great demonstration…What you got for an encore??? You put that on you tube also??? While you’re doing that don’t forget your handout……

  298. Brian258 says:

    hey Mickey or what ever it is im sorry to disapoint i know a sales man that works for toyota he had a tundra guess what he got cause he said hed prove it was tough he went off roading came back in we tryed to open his tailgate guess what didnt open!!!!! the box twisted the dual stage lift assist hing Broke also its not what consumers get for gas millage its the ratings they are only rated up to 19 for 2009 well if thats not higher with power still there good bye big motor also as for a diesel toyota wont happen they dont pass emisons i do like ford and all not gonna deny it but ive ridden in chevy and toyota and drivin a tundra they dont pull very much well at least very fast

  299. Brian258 says:

    i forgot one thing who got the motor trend truck of the year award (for being tough) lets say toyota was no where in the running dodge was 2nd and toyota was 5th

  300. Mickey says:

    Brian they make lolipops for you all day suckers.Brian I can list friends also that have Fords and chevy’s that weren’t quite up to par. I can say the same with the Ford and chevy I had. Who has their hands out ooh please help me or I close down. If you want I can show you my sticker where’s it 20 mpg and yes just today at a bank I was at this new Ford FX4 4 door had a sticker mpg of 14 – 18mpg. Same weight as mine but piss poor mpg. The very nice door lowered her window and stated she worked at the dealer and the truck was for sale. Being the nice guy I am I politely told her I already have a real American made truck that gets better mpg than what you have here. She ask what truck and Naturally I told her the one and only Tundra Crewmax Limited. Space you dreamers wished you had. Now we know motor trend only gives the award to the new trucks that come out. Well If you were as smart as you act you would know the Tundra came out in 07 and the F-150, and Ram came out in 09. Now when you want to brag at least put all facts out there….. Now you know the whole truth try again with some more B/S.

  301. Mickey says:

    Oh brian while you’re at it explain this?
    http://www.fordf150news.wordpress.com/

  302. Justin says:

    Mickey: Not defending Brian, but thought I’d throw in my 2 cents on your comment.
    *****
    Ford isn’t looking for a hand out? Exactly how much money did they get from the Gov. again? Now they have asked the Gov. to hold their portion of the funds for a rainy day, if either GM or Chrysler or both declare BK. I guess in one sense that is asking for a hand out, but only in the worst case scenario. You have to admit, if Chrysler & GM go down and take many of their suppliers with them, Toyota, Ford and many other auto manufacturers will be greatly impacted. Sure maybe Ford more than others, but it won’t be all roses for all others.
    *****
    On your mpg statement, that is what the sticker states, 14/18. But from what some of the 09 F150 5.4L owners I’ve spoken to, they are surpassing those marks, some are not. Many times it depends on the drivers

  303. Justin says:

    Mickey: So what about this article? I think it’s accurate what he said, being the F-Series is a quicker build. Couple points on claims made. Look at the Ford KC, Dearborn & Kentucky plants, all in the Top 7 fastest. This could be do to better quality and faster workers, but it could also be due to the F-Series being less complicated. Heck it could be both. But the fact remains, even if it was true that it was less complicated, doesn’t translate into the F-Series being a lesser quality truck. I’d like to see any factual correlation between a less complicated build being lesser quality than a more complicated build. All it truly means is it’s quicker and easier to build, that’s all.
    *****
    Couple items I’ll note. The Dearborn and KC plants only build F150s, the Kentucky plant only builds SuperDuties (F250+). So there is no change over between equipment needed to build the trucks. While the Cuautitlan plant builds both F150s and SuperDuties, requiring more time for change over, which could be adding to the build time. So this article simply states “F150s”, but make nor reference to the SuperDuties built by this facility. This is something this site when conducting their article doesn’t seem to have factored into the equation for the increased time, but they still beat out Toyotas Princeton facility.
    *****
    I see no factual basis on Gettelfingers comment, nor the article posted by this site. Sure you can make some assumptions, but those can go either way, for or against Gettelfingers comment and for/against this sites article.

  304. Justin – Gettelfinger’s comments aren’t entirely factual, and neither is our article. We don’t have access to the factories, so we can’t say with fact that Ford brings in more pre-assembled parts. We also can’t say with fact that some UAW workers aren’t super-human in strength…or that they’re able to work 25% faster than a non-union worker. Of course, the facts ARE that 1) Toyota is consistently recognized as the fastest and most efficient producer of vehicles 2) The average truck takes about 25 hours to build 3) The Tundra was in a model-year change and 4) The Harbour report doesn’t factor pre-assembley into build times. SO, the facts certainly seem to support our version of the truth MUCH more than they support Gettelfinger’s version.

  305. Justin says:

    Jason (Admin): Understand your points and the angle your article is coming from. But also see the points/angle that Gettelfinger stressing. So personally, I couldn’t say what’s true either way without all the facts and figures laid in front of me.

  306. Justin says:

    2008 year end trucks sales report.
    http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....end-t.html

    “The Ford F-Series finished 2008 as the best-selling vehicle in the country for the 32nd year in a row”

    “Ford increased its share of the full-size truck segment, improving 0.7 percent over 2007.”

    “Toyota had big plans for the current Tundra. It was expected to sell 200,000 units a year or more when it went on sale in 2007. Today, that target is a faded memory. The Tundra missed its sales goal by more than 60,000 units in 2008, falling 30.2 percent from 2007’s numbers. In fact, the latest Tundra outsold the previous generation

  307. Justin says:

    December 2008 Truck sales:
    http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....008-t.html

    Tundra sales down 52%, Dec 07 vs Dec 08. Tundra sales down 30.4%, 2007 vs 2008.

    F-Series sales down 24%, Dec 07 vs Dec 08. F-Series sales down 25.4%, 2007 vs 2008.

    One high for Toyota, they sold more trucks in 2008 (Tundra & Tacoma combined) than Dodge (Ram & Dakota combined).

  308. Justin says:

    Looks like Toyota is following the same path the domestics are. Asking for decrease in wages, idling plants, posting declines in sales, posting losses and then what next? Like I’ve stated before, this economic crisis is much farther reaching than just the Big 3. Sure Toyota most likely is doing better than the Big 3, but they can and will be impacted by the economic conditions.

    http://www.freep.com/article/2.....1/90108033

  309. Justin – The sales figures are all fine and good, but they’re no indicator of quality or value. Consumers can’t be relied upon to choose the best vehicles based on the facts alone, as financial incentives, brand loyalty, political values, and “gee-whiz” features work to cloud the judgment of all but the most objective buyers. Toyota cutting salaries and staff isn’t much news either – almost every business in the world is doing it. As for Ford’s safety rating, that’s great work. Getting tops in both of those tests is tough.

  310. Mickey says:

    If they let me post this link to my photobucket.com, I will tell you no lies. Just because you can’t find it doesn’t mean it’s not true. So we will see. If not It is definitely on Tundratalk.net. I can also make a new thread for you to see it. [IMG]http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Mickey9201/12-22-200894645PM.jpg[/IMG]

  311. Mickey says:

    Justin to start off with whether they hold Ford’s money or gave it to them as a bail out is all about the same If they hold it for Ford it’s still there whether you took ownership of it at that moment or when you take ownership of it a month later. The govt still had to appropiate the money that was requested. Now what you’re saying then the govt should use the money for something else and what happens to ford when they call and say in two months we need the money. Ooopps we gave the money to someone else to use so tough luck. The money is still there whether they use it at that moment or not. Your CEO did request it. This is the same as Gettelfingers statement saying it’s factual. Just as Jason mention about preassemble parts. Toyota maybe following down the path of the Big 3 but still didn’t ask for govt money.

  312. 2008 tundra owner says:

    Well I have had my 2008 for about a year now, and I have to say I am not too happy with the truck. I am not trying to flame anyone, but this is my first truck purchase. This truck was purchased to tow my 3500lb trailer and to be honest it struggles. We took it from Massachusetts to Maine last summer and the Tundra did not like towing it at all. I had it in tow/haul mode all the way up, tried the shifter but it all felt the same. It just seems like there is something wrong with this truck. I have taken it to 2 different dealerships due to the transmission feeling like it slips. When turning a corner (slowing down to 5 mph) or so then stepping on the gas to go down the hill, the truck sounds like its in neutral and the rpms go way up. All I get from the dealers is it’s the electronic something or other and its completly normal. I can’t seem to try and figure it out. The oil pressure gauge is always between midline and H and when I start the truck, and when I step on the gas it goes 3/4 to H. Not sure whats up with that, dealer doesn’t know… I asked if it was a real time gauge and they had no clue. I am really disgusted with my dealer here, and since I can’t get any answers my views on this truck are going down the toilet. If I could pay off this loan I would get another truck but not Toyota. Just had way too many unexplained problems. I love the look, size and everything about the truck, but the performance just isn’t there. I have been looking at sites and people are towing with the same 5.7 crewmax 4×4 with double the trailer I have and they say they can hardly tell its there. I can’t see that when I can 100% feel my 3500lb trailer there….

  313. Mickey says:

    2008 sounds like your tranny is the problem… Try a different dealer and see what goes on. Jason and Justin take a look at this and you will get a kick out of it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrk6vsb77xk

  314. 2008 Tundra Owner – I think your dealer has really let you down. The problems you’re describing (the truck’s “grade logic” and oil pressure gauge) can be easily explained. First, the oil pressure: the gauge isn’t precise – it’s not measuring specific oil pressures, it’s simple verifying pressure in the system. As RPM’s increase, pressure increases enough to push the needle up. As RPM’s decrease, pressure drops and the needle goes back to “normal” (the middle of the range). Think of your oil pressure gauge as a “oil system catastrophic failure” indicator and it makes a lot more sense. Automakers install cheap oil pressure gauges (like the one in the Tundra) because they’re still effective enough to describe a low oil pressure/no oil situation. As for the engine revving (and transmission downshift) while towing, that’s probably triggered by your brake tap during your turn (but I can’t say for sure because I’m not there watching you). Have you read the owner’s manual section on towing? It will answer a lot of your questions and you’ll be able to figure out why your truck’s computer is making these choices. Once you get it all figured, you’ll find that the Tundra is MORE than capable of pulling 3500 lbs.

  315. 2008 tundra owner says:

    ADMIN: Yes I have read my manual, and to be honest with you it doesn’t tell you much. I did everything that is recommended in the manual, and rechecked to make sure I did. I think you might be confused on my original post. While I am not towing (just everyday driving) is when the engine rev’s like I am in neutral after taking a corner. After taking a corner or slowing down then stepping on the gas again the truck rev’s up like it’s in neutral before taking off. This doesn’t happen all the time. When I am at a stop light and it turns green sometimes it takes me a few seconds to be able to get through the intersection because of this. Other times if I apply the same amount of pressure on the gas pedal the truck takes off like a jet with no lag at all… it is very inconsistent. When towing it almost feels like the trailers brakes are always on and I am actually dragging the trailer. I know the camper brakes are off because I turned off my electronic brakes to test so that is not the problem it is the truck.

  316. 2008 tundra owner says:

    I just wanted to let you know that I am not saying Toyota sucks or anything, I do indeed like the truck, but my faith in Toyota is to the point now that I would not purchase another vehicle with them. My wife is on her 2nd Rav 4 which she loves, however due to our local dealership she also will not buy another toyota. She took her Rav in for a oil change and tire rotation, they had her car there all day. They call right an hour before they close saying they couldn’t do the tire rotation due to them not having their (master wheel lock key) they said it doesn’t fit her car and that she doesn’t have one and will have to pay for a new one; as well as come back for her rotation. Funny thing is is that she purchased wheel locks when she bought her car, and should have had the key in there; plus they have rotated her tires before. I told them to look for it, and they tell me that the SHUTTLE DRIVER couldn’t find it. Um???? he is like 90 yrs old, should’t the TECH be looking and KNOW where to look? We got the car home looked in the manual to find the key and low and behold it was EXACTLY where the manual said it was zipped tied to the bolt wrench. This dealership is a joke and I am driving over an hour to get oil changes because I will not give them any more of my time and money.

    PS: I am not trying to criticize you, this site or anything, don’t get me wrong. I am just fed up, let down and just at a loss for words. Any help from anyone would be appreciated, from experiences. That is why I am here.

  317. 2008 Tundra Owner – I understand where you’re coming from. Your local dealership sounds terrible – have you called the General Manager of the dealership to complain? They need to know who is acting so complacently and fire that person. As for your truck, have you had the torque converter checked? We’ve heard of a few failing and your symptoms sound very similar.

  318. 2008 tundra owner says:

    ADMIN: I actually just wrote a letter to the dealership and will mail it tomorrow morning. As for the Torque Converter, no I have not had that checked. Like I said this is my first truck and of course not knowing everything that makes a truck a truck.. lol, that is the hard part for me. I will look that up on the internet and see if I can take it somewhere. I just hope they will take me in, with their we can’t duplicate the problem so there isn’t one attitude. thanks for the information though.

  319. 2008 tundra owner says:

    ADMIN: I have been looking up the torque converter and it seems that a lot of 07 and some 08 had to had theirs replaced due to a shutter sound. Whats funny about this is I get one at 35mph, and it feels like the underside of the truck is vibrating. I have also mentioned this to the two dealers I went to and nobody could duplicate it. I guess my question is, how to I get them to listen to me and test the converter; and get it replaced?…

  320. 2008 tundra owner says:

    Oh yeah and whats up with the BANG noise when changing from 4 wheel high back to 2 wheel. We have gotten a lot a snow here in Massachusetts and when I go to 4 wheel and back to 2… there is a lot of banging going on underneath.

  321. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): I partly agree that sales figures don’t correspond directly to quality/value, but to try and totally discount sales figures, in my opinion, is a misguided and unacceptable approach. So using that philosophy, guess we could say the same about the Camry. Also, to say consumers can’t make a decision on the best vehicle is also short sighted. So I guess I can also state consumers can

  322. Justin says:

    Mickey: Depends on each persons understanding and following of the loan. Ford has not taken ownership of any funds and they may never do so. Sure the Gov. may have earmarked some and put it away for a rainy day, but Ford hasn’t and may never tap these funds. Similar to you going to buy a car, you ask for a loan through XYZ bank for X dollars. You get approved but haven’t decided on whether you need the loan or whether or not you’ll go through that bank. Until you sign that paperwork and accept the loan, you have not touched the money and are not in line to repay the amount agreed upon. So you and I may have differing opinions on this matter, but tell me exactly how much money Ford has received so far from the Gov. on this loan? That should be the bottom line.

  323. Justin says:

    Mickey: I’ve seen that video before. I’ll admit, the Toy PU’s of the 80’s & early/mid 90’s I liked much more than after they went to the Tacoma name. Think they were built to last much longer than today’s trucks. My cousin had an 83 or 84 black Toyota PU 4×4 and he beat that thing to death, and it kept coming back for more. But I have similar stories of my 85 Ranger that did just the same. His Toy never did anything my Ranger didn’t and vice versa. Both were great trucks. He ended up selling the truck due to it starting to fall apart piece by piece due to rust, while my Ranger showed very little rust and no major problems, until someone ran a red light and broadsided me in it. The ins. company ended up totaling it out. Just don’t know how that video correlates to the 08/09 F150 & Tundra? We could show many cars/trucks from yesteryear that were good/bad to prove a point, but what does that really mean for the brand new models? Absolutely nothing in my opinion.

  324. Justin says:

    2008 Tundra: The TC issue in 07 & some 08 models sounds to be a more common issue than many here are letting on to believe. The TC could potentially be causing your problem when towing if it’s not locking/unlocking properly, and would be the most common issue associated with the Tundra if you feel like you’re traveling over a rumble strip. I can see it possibly causing your slow speed, neutral feeling, RPM jump issue, if the TC isn

  325. Justin says:

    More awards for the F150

    http://www.freep.com/article/2.....f+the+Year

    The Ford F-150 was named North American Truck of the Year at the Detroit auto show, in the 16th Annual award juried by the automotive media.

    Specialty Equipment Market Association named it the most accessory-friendly pickup.

    The F-150 was expected to be named best redesigned vehicle of 2009 by Kelley Blue Book.

  326. Justin – I wholeheartedly agree that the Camry shouldn’t be named the best midsize car on the market. Just because Toyota sells more Camrys than Ford sells Fusions, doesn’t mean that the Camry is better than the Fusion. Far from it. My point is that sales figures, by themselves, have little value…especially in such a tight market. Dodge dealers, for example, were offering 50% off sticker price on 2007 Rams this year, and their sales figures during the month of July (during the $2.99 gas promo) were phenomenal…but that doesn’t mean the Ram was the best truck available in July. As I said, sales figures are influenced by a variety of factors, many of which are completely unrelated to quality, reliability, or overall value. VW managed to sell the hell out of Jettas during the last decade despite AWFUL Consumer Reports ratings, mostly because they had a good ad campaign and excellent lease programs (which have since collapsed). Many domestic truck owners and buyers talk about political preference when they say they “won’t buy a Jap truck.” The Toyota Prius enjoys absurdly high sales considering that it takes more than 8 years to “earn back” the additional price for the hybrid system (a “gee-whiz” feature). SO, to sum up, sales figures are all fine and good, but they have little to do with quality, reliability, or which vehicle is “better.” Market share gains, on the other hand, can sometimes indicate a shift, and you’ll note that the F150 didn’t experience a significant gain in market share during the past year despite strong sales (about 0.75%). In fact, GM trucks gained the most market share (1.6%), but I doubt seriously that anyone would argue the GM product is significantly better than Ford’s new F150, Dodge’s new Ram, or our favorite truck the Tundra. Sales figures don’t matter.

  327. Mickey says:

    Justin that’s your opinion and you’re off on it. (2008 Tundra: The TC issue in 07 & some 08 models sounds to be a more common issue than many here are letting on to believe.) For it to be common you’re talking about half the trucks sold and it’s not that at all.

  328. Mickey says:

    Also did you see the sticker I posted?

  329. Justin says:

    Admin (Jason): Thank you for explaining your reasoning behind the political aspect regarding sales. I truly can understand this point and believe it has validity. I see it often (most times by the same posters) on some of the Ford & GM sites I frequent. Ever though I agree there is a market out there like this, we’ll never know the true % of these folks. So to know the exact figure or even a rough guesstimate that purchased a domestic over an import for this reason is difficult to quantify. People used to say this about compact/mid-size and luxury sedans too, but look at Acura, Lexus and the like now.
    *****
    Personally, I believe there is some truth behind the sales figures of the Camry and F150, but your point is well taken. The Camry, like the F150, has built itself a name and reputation over the years, similar to the way Toyota has. People have grown accustomed to the makes and truly believe they are quality vehicles, which I totally agree. To say any one vehicle is better all around than another is extremely difficult. Where one vehicle may shine, another may not, and vice-versa. Like the F150/Tundra debate, each has specific values that draw customers to that vehicle. Whether it is hp/lb-ft, interior space, “gee-whiz” features, the brand name, etc. So to completely discount sales figures as a whole, still isn’t the most objective view. Sure, take the results with a grain of salt, but don’t pass them over so quickly. Again, I do agree that quality/reliability isn’t a given based on sales figures.
    *****
    We won’t get into the Ram discussion, as I didn’t like the previous two models and have yet to drive or take an extended up close view of the 09s. Style wise, I like them, but simply looking over some specs, I feel the truck is geared more towards the weekend warrior. Also, it

  330. Justin says:

    Mickey: If you feel I’m off, perfectly fine, but look at the BIG picture here
    *****
    You truly believe the TC problem is a not so common issue? Toyota has sold roughly 330-340K 07/08 Tundra

  331. Justin says:

    Mickey: Couldn’t view the image yesterday, but is working today. I will concede that you are correct. Looking at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm, it was listed at 16/20, but with the new EPA standards it has dropped to 14/18. This is why the 08 & 09 Tundra

  332. Justin – We’re making the same point about sales figures. As you say, we’ll never know what percentage of buyers favored a particular vehicle for what reason, so it’s hard to put a lot of stock in them. Market share is much more telling, but as you say it moves year to year based on customer expectations of new models, the reasons I listed, and a half-dozen other reasons not mentioned here. As for the market share losers, the explanation is simple. Take what you think you know about the car business and throw it out the window – there was nothing rational about what happened the last 6 months of the year, and I doubt anything rational will happen this year either. The only thing I know for sure – GM set themselves back at least 1 year (and probably 2) when they stopped all R&D in the 4th quarter of 2008. Ford stands to benefit the most of any automaker in 2009 – they’ve got the best story, USA heritage, they’re winning the quality battle, and GM and Chrysler are going to aggressively renegotiate UAW contracts (and Ford will benefit). Ford stock closed at about $2.50 a share, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was back at $9 a share by year-end. I’m loading up.

  333. Mickey says:

    I would agree Jason…. Time to buy ford stock…..

  334. Anonymous says:

    Why dont you Ladies buy Toyota stocks. If they are so good buy their stock. Stop being a fair weather fan. Ride out the stormy weather.

    So who is the Motortrend Truck Of The Year??? Toyota was so proud of it. How is that TC problem?? Mickey are you still waxing your light bezel rings to keep them from rusting?? There is QUAILTY!! Ford has some pretty interesting videos on there site, and no they are not bumper pulls like all Tundra owners like to see. It kinda of a factual video that for challenged all manufactures to compare themselves. 2 Suspension tests and a fuel economy test. Its pretty funny when Mike Rowe asks if the Tundra is still in one piece just after the first test. So the million dollar question why doesnt Toyota duplicate the test a Michigan Proving Grounds??? Set it straight once and for all. Who has the best TRUCK, not a Sunday driving Soccor mom truck. Alot of reveiws praise the Tundra for luxury, lets praise it for its ability to work and work hard.

    Ford already showed how a real trucks tow hooks will not seperate the front bumper from the frame causing extensive damage.

  335. Anonymous says:

    It’s pretty funny how pickuptruck dot com had to add a tailgate test to their comparision just for the Tundra. How does feel to know the Tundra beat the Titan in Truck Trends test, but they where both beat by all the domestics. Starting to look like the T-100 all over. Such a shame.

    So the Titan was faster 0-40 than everyone with a time of 4.00. The Silverado the rest of the times 0-50 through 0-80. Tundra finshed with a honorable mention.

  336. 2008 Tundra Owner says:

    Just to update you all on my possible TC problem. I called the dealership where I purchased the truck and they said they couldn’t test for that and it would have to happen in order for them to even consider it. I told them they could have the truck for a week to test, and they said, “no need”. I e-mailed another dealership an hour or so away from me, and actually received a response saying they are looking into it and will get back to me. They guy there pretty much said that they are seeing more 08’s then expected for the TC problem since it was more a 07 issue. Eventhough he kind of laughed and said the TC’s are the same as the 07’s. So right now he is looking to see if the TC is going to be the same model or a upgraded one for the fix. Apparently he also mentioned that his friend is going through his 3rd transmission since he bought his 08 at the beginning of 08. We will see, I just hope he will go the distance and really look into my issue.

  337. 2008 Tundra Owner says:

    sorry for the typo’s

  338. Mickey says:

    As usual reid you forgot your name.

  339. Anonymous – I’ll bite. Don’t care about truck of the year – go ahead, search the site and find one place where we ever trumpeted about the Tundra’s place as MTTOY. You won’t find it. If you actually read anything we said here (instead of just sniping), you’d notice that Justin and I already discussed the PickupTrucks.com comparison. As far as bragging about how well the F150 did in all the Ford marketing videos…congratulations. Ford’s marketing team made you a believer – great work! Finally, your stock comment speaks for itself. As always with these types of comments, I look forward to a rambling, unorganized response that contains more accusations than facts.

  340. 2008 Tundra Owner – Good to hear that you found a better dealership. A change in dealer can make a huge difference. I would encourage you to write a letter to both the general managers at the two dealerships once this is all taken care of. They both need to see how your local dealer’s service department failed you.

  341. If you would like to comment on this article, please see the first post in the updated, three-part official comparison:
    http://www.tundraheadquarters......chanicals/
    Comments are now closed.

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